New War In Israel / Gaza

[Happy Lizard]

I though this was a very good conversation. Leaving aside for bit how we judge who is right and who is wrong. And addressing how propaganda is playing on our feelings and how we look at this situation. 

https://youtu.be/VxDlUYyXkWU?feature=shared

He doesn’t speak too much about what type of propaganda, just highlighting how it might be playing on our perception.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Happy Lizard

[Nivsch]

2 hours ago, Scholar said:

This is a little worrisome:

https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/HHP_Oct23_KeyResults.pdf

 

Over 50% of 18-24 aged participants answer Hamas mass murder of over 1,200 Israeli civilians can be justified.

This is US registered voters by the way.

 

@Leo Gura

Is it just me or does image embedding not work anymore?

Those voters are all from USA or widespreaded all over the world?

[Hardkill]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Neither side has much interest in integrity at this point.

But why don't they realize that this will backfire on them in the end?

[Scholar]

22 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Those voters are all from USA or widespreaded all over the world?

US voters.

[Breakingthewall]

It is an intolerable shame that a nation in 2023 is stealing ground from another nation that is there since 2000 years.  The united nations must stop this shame. It's not the same than Ukraine, Donbass is Russia. Maybe China will take a step forward and want to arbitrate this and thus begin to show its weight. 

 

[Harikrishnan]

14 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

It is an intolerable shame that a nation in 2023 is stealing ground from another nation that is there since 2000 years.  The united nations must stop this shame. It's not the same than Ukraine, Donbass is Russia. Maybe China will take a step forward and want to arbitrate this and thus begin to show its weight. 

 

China 😂 same country who wants to get taiwan,South asian sea,Arunachal Pradesh from India, Russian teritories. Maybe they will even claim some part of US in 50 years 

[Breakingthewall]

1 minute ago, Harikrishnan said:

China 😂 same country who wants to get taiwan,

It's not the same, taiwan is like hong kong, it's a political county but they are the same nation. They don't want to expell the taiwanese from the land and settle Chinese, it's a huge difference

[Harikrishnan]

1 minute ago, Breakingthewall said:

It's not the same, taiwan is like hong kong, it's a political county but they are the same nation. They don't want to expell the taiwanese from the land and settle Chinese, it's a huge difference

China doesn't want to expell anyone from there land, untill they take over. Dalilama is kissing childrens in tibet now. 

[Breakingthewall]

4 minutes ago, Harikrishnan said:

China doesn't want to expell anyone from there land, untill they take over. Dalilama is kissing childrens in tibet now. 

12 minutes ago, Harikrishnan said:

 

 

Yes, but Seems that china could intervene in this. It is rare that they positions itself without reason. Just diplomatic, but with weight

 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Jodistrict]

35 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

It is an intolerable shame that a nation in 2023 is stealing ground from another nation that is there since 2000 years.  The united nations must stop this shame. It's not the same than Ukraine, Donbass is Russia. Maybe China will take a step forward and want to arbitrate this and thus begin to show its weight. 

 

China is making diplomatic efforts in the Middle East.  China is the logical choice as a neutral arbitrator.  America will never be seen in the Middle East as a neutral party.

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qTXVtvQggE

[Harikrishnan]

11 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Yes, but Seems that china could intervene in this. It is rare that they positions itself without reason

 

 

 

China only work, If it benefits them . If China intervenes now and war is stopped it will huge victory for them against US. World will shift towards them.

(It will also help India in some way, cause Saudi can resume talks with Israel and middle east europe corridor plans will move forward. China doesn't want that obviously)

But will they? They have taiwan to conquer in few years. Then America and west will intervene. 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Harikrishnan

[Breakingthewall]

2 minutes ago, Harikrishnan said:

But will they? They have taiwan to conquer in few years. Then America and west will intervene. 

Chinese are too smart to do anything that could be wrong for their business. They love business much more than they love Taiwan. 

[Harikrishnan]

7 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Chinese are too smart to do anything that could be wrong for their business. They love business much more than they love Taiwan. 

But Mao I think wanted to unfiy taiwan with them before their 100year celebration or something like that and its getting close.

Between I heard in News that putin had a heart attack and was lying on floor yesterday when his guards arrived. Is this true. (It was in our local news - gave me stalin vibe)

Edited October 24, 2023 by Harikrishnan

[Harikrishnan]

After reading through almost all comments here regarding Palestine and Israel, and watching many videos, I realized I cannot take one side and Its really hard when most of people you know and people in political space in my state and country are divided between either one of them. Damn why can't I choose one, and more I read about the issue more I realize I understand nothing about the issue. I don't know how it will resolve or will it even resolve in my lifetime. These people are fucked up! 

[PurpleTree]

3 hour UN Security Council adressing Israel-Palestine crisis

https://www.youtube.com/live/WeV5GXK2AKc?si=vySHz0nX-HICNxAg

[Jodistrict]

 

Freed Hamas Hostage Yocheved Lifshitz, 85, Says She Was “Treated Well” After Enduring “Hell”

https://www.democracynow.org/2023/10/24/shalom_hamas_hostage_release_handshake_video

The hostage who was freed gives her statement to the media.    "Democracy Now" is an excellent source of accurate information on Israel & Palestine.

[Jacob Morres]

Obama made a statement on the conflict yesterday if anyones interested

https://barackobama.medium.com/my-statement-on-israel-and-gaza-a6c397f09a30

It’s been 17 days since Hamas launched its horrific attack against Israel, killing over 1,400 Israeli citizens, including defenseless women, children and the elderly. In the aftermath of such unspeakable brutality, the U.S. government and the American people have shared in the grief of families, prayed for the return of loved ones, and rightly declared solidarity with the Israeli people.

As I stated in an earlier post, Israel has a right to defend its citizens against such wanton violence, and I fully support President Biden’s call for the United States to support our long-time ally in going after Hamas, dismantling its military capabilities, and facilitating the safe return of hundreds of hostages to their families.

But even as we support Israel, we should also be clear that how Israel prosecutes this fight against Hamas matters. In particular, it matters — as President Biden has repeatedly emphasized — that Israel’s military strategy abides by international law, including those laws that seek to avoid, to every extent possible, the death or suffering of civilian populations. Upholding these values is important for its own sake — because it is morally just and reflects our belief in the inherent value of every human life. Upholding these values is also vital for building alliances and shaping international opinion — all of which are critical for Israel’s long-term security.

This is an enormously difficult task. War is always tragic, and even the most carefully planned military operations often put civilians at risk. As President Biden noted during his recent visit to Israel, America itself has at times fallen short of our higher values when engaged in war, and in the aftermath of 9/11, the U.S. government wasn’t interested in heeding the advice of even our allies when it came to the steps we took to protect ourselves against Al Qaeda. Now, after the systematic massacre of Israeli citizens, a massacre that evokes some of the darkest memories of persecution against the Jewish people, it’s understandable that many Israelis have demanded that their government do whatever it takes to root out Hamas and make sure such attacks never happen again. Moreover, Hamas’ military operations are deeply embedded within Gaza — and its leadership seems to intentionally hide among civilians, thereby endangering the very people they claim to represent.

Still, the world is watching closely as events in the region unfold, and any Israeli military strategy that ignores the human costs could ultimately backfire. Already, thousands of Palestinians have been killed in the bombing of Gaza, many of them children. Hundreds of thousands have been forced from their homes. The Israeli government’s decision to cut off food, water and electricity to a captive civilian population threatens not only to worsen a growing humanitarian crisis; it could further harden Palestinian attitudes for generations, erode global support for Israel, play into the hands of Israel’s enemies, and undermine long term efforts to achieve peace and stability in the region.

It’s therefore important that those of us supporting Israel in its time of need encourage a strategy that can incapacitate Hamas while minimizing further civilian casualties. Israel’s recent shift to allow relief trucks into Gaza, prompted in part by the Biden administration’s behind-the-scenes diplomacy, is an encouraging step, but we need to continue to lead the international community in accelerating critical aid and supplies to an increasingly desperate Gaza population. And while the prospects of future peace may seem more distant than ever, we should call on all of the key actors in the region to engage with those Palestinian leaders and organizations that recognize Israel’s right to exist to begin articulating a viable pathway for Palestinians to achieve their legitimate aspirations for self-determination — because that is the best and perhaps only way to achieve the lasting peace and security most Israeli and Palestinian families yearn for.

Finally, in dealing with what is an extraordinarily complex situation where so many people are in pain and passions are understandably running high, all of us need to do our best to put our best values, rather than our worst fears, on display.

That means actively opposing anti-semitism in all its forms, everywhere. It means rejecting efforts to minimize the terrible tragedy that the Israeli people have just endured, as well as the morally-bankrupt suggestion that any cause can somehow justify the deliberate slaughter of innocent people.

It means rejecting anti-Muslim, anti-Arab or anti-Palestinian sentiment. It means refusing to lump all Palestinians with Hamas or other terrorist groups. It means guarding against dehumanizing language towards the people of Gaza, or downplaying Palestinian suffering — whether in Gaza or the West Bank — as irrelevant or illegitimate.

It means recognizing that Israel has every right to exist; that the Jewish people have claim to a secure homeland where they have ancient historical roots; and that there have been instances in which previous Israeli governments made meaningful efforts to resolve the dispute and provide a path for a two-state solution — efforts that were ultimately rebuffed by the other side.

It means acknowledging that Palestinians have also lived in disputed territories for generations; that many of them were not only displaced when Israel was formed but continue to be forcibly displaced by a settler movement that too often has received tacit or explicit support from the Israeli government; that Palestinian leaders who’ve been willing to make concessions for a two-state solution have too often had little to show for their efforts; and that it is possible for people of good will to champion Palestinian rights and oppose certain Israeli government policies in the West Bank and Gaza without being anti-semitic.

Perhaps most of all, it means we should choose not to always assume the worst in those with whom we disagree. In an age of constant rancor, trolling and misinformation on social media, at a time when so many politicians and attention seekers see an advantage in shedding heat rather than light, it may be unrealistic to expect respectful dialogue on any issue — much less on an issue with such high stakes and after so much blood has been spilled. But if we care about keeping open the possibility of peace, security and dignity for future generations of Israeli and Palestinian children — as well as for our own children — then it falls upon all of us to at least make the effort to model, in our own words and actions, the kind of world we want them to inherit.

Here are links to some useful perspectives and background on the conflict:

Edited October 25, 2023 by Jacob Morres

[Scholar]

22 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

 

Freed Hamas Hostage Yocheved Lifshitz, 85, Says She Was “Treated Well” After Enduring “Hell”

https://www.democracynow.org/2023/10/24/shalom_hamas_hostage_release_handshake_video

The hostage who was freed gives her statement to the media.    "Democracy Now" is an excellent source of accurate information on Israel & Palestine.

To be clear, she is referring to the people who held her captive, not the people who kidnapped her. She reported she was beaten and experienced hell by the actual terrorists who slaughtered civilians and brought her back as a hostage.

Hamas has every reason not to mistreat the hostages that are designated for exchange, so this is not very surprising.

[Sir Oberon]

There should be no justification for inflicting suffering, pain, and death.  Unless we are at war.  Hamas did start this round, however, the fire has been burning since the beginning of our memories.  If not all time.  

The West Vs the East, or Islam vs Judaism, vs Christianity, the monotheistic religions seem to be coming to blows.  Is it democracy vs. autocracy?

It was all written into Biblical prophecies too. life is truly a stage par excellence.

I'm amazed...and flabbergasted.

 

 

 

[Sir Oberon]

Carry on, the stage awaits you.