New War In Israel / Gaza

[Jodistrict]

Neocons cannot be stopped, they will get war

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vQXLyrCi_0

 

 

The propagandists are taking the scripts from 2003 and just changing the names.

2003                                 2023

al queda                          hamas

9/11                                 references are made to “9/11”

axis of evil                       Russia/china/Iran

Iraq has chemical weapons       Hamas has chemical weapons

 

Biden and his three front war -  Ron Paul

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XzKaWCkUQo&t=1290s

 

[Nivsch]

8 hours ago, DawnC said:

Being the stronger side doesn't automatically make you the aggressor. If you believe that if Israel were to withdraw from the West Bank, Palestinians would adopt a 'live and let live' mindset like yours, you are living in a dream world. Israel's continued control is primarily fueled by its citizens' fear of a recurrence of what happened in Gaza (rather than being driven by a religious fanatic approach like major part of the Palestinian society). This perspective overlooks the societal structures, levels of development, and values held by both Israelis and Palestinians, as it's emotionally easier to sympathize with the weaker side.

edit:

His suggested solution is ridiculous. It is a 'La La Land' approach that will never work.

Israel is not without fault, but his accusations are exaggerated, and he appears to lack an understanding of the realities of war.

well Said 🙏

[Leo Gura]

6 hours ago, Hardkill said:

What about having integrity and principles? You've talked a lot about how important that is for preventing devilry.

Neither side has much interest in integrity at this point.

[lina]

https://www.tiktok.com/@honestmedia5/video/7292472016660204833

Mohamed Hadid (Gigi Hadid's father) on how his family lost their house in Palestine

[lina]

On 10/23/2023 at 7:19 AM, zazen said:

”The United Nations commissioned a fact-finding mission known as the Goldstone Report, which concluded  that the Israeli strategy was "designed to punish, humiliate and  terrorise a civilian population."

 

The link for the full report : https://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/12session/a-hrc-12-48.pdf 

Edited October 24, 2023 by lina

[zazen]

12 hours ago, DawnC said:

Being the stronger side doesn't automatically make you the aggressor. If you believe that if Israel were to withdraw from the West Bank, Palestinians would adopt a 'live and let live' mindset like yours, you are living in a dream world. Israel's continued control is primarily fueled by its citizens' fear of a recurrence of what happened in Gaza (rather than being driven by a religious fanatic approach like major part of the Palestinian society). This perspective overlooks the societal structures, levels of development, and values held by both Israelis and Palestinians, as it's emotionally easier to sympathize with the weaker side.

edit:

His suggested solution is ridiculous. It is a 'La La Land' approach that will never work.

Israel is not without fault, but his accusations are exaggerated, and he appears to lack an understanding of the realities of war.

''Israel's continued control is primarily fueled by its citizens fear of a recurrence of what happened''.  Thats the source of the problem, occupation. Israel can't bomb an ideology out of existence. The occupation and control is what gives rise to the idea of resistance. By that logic the European countries should all be controlling each other for fear of ancient feuds resurfacing - otherwise whats the solution, to have constant control and restrictions on a segment of the population for ever akin to an apartheid state - in the 21st century? By a 'developed' country like Israel?

 

''driven by a religious fanatic approach like major part of the Palestinian society.'' Hamas combatants are estimated between 15'000-40'000 in a population of roughly 2million. If we take the highest estimate of 40'000 thats 2% of the population. That isn't a major representation of Palestinian society.  So to tackle 40'000 combatants its justified to strip 2million innocents half of which are children of electricity food and water and be difficult in allowing in aid at the Egypt border? From a so called 'developed' society which has broken and still breaks countless human right laws and when a bomb of a report comes out such as the Goldstone report that would expose and pressure the world on Israel, Mr Goldstone later backtracks on it probably due to blackmail via Mossad.

 

Israel can do what US did in Middle East operations by going in with special forces to take out Hamas rather than destroying the whole place. Hamas are underground in bunkers mostly not being affected anyway, and giving a warning of 24 hours is not enough time for 1 million people to move in masses to the South, especially when their route and envoy of movement is attacked. So 'developed'. What are the incubators with babies meant to do also?

Edited October 24, 2023 by zazen

[Merkabah Star]

1 hour ago, lina said:

https://www.tiktok.com/@honestmedia5/video/7292472016660204833

Mohamed Hadid (Gigi Hadid's father) on how his family lost their house in Palestine

Wow, I didn’t know that story, I knew he was from Palestine.  Thanks for posting it. 

[DawnC]

32 minutes ago, zazen said:

''Israel's continued control is primarily fueled by its citizens fear of a recurrence of what happened''.  Thats the source of the problem, occupation. Israel can't bomb an ideology out of existence. The occupation and control is what gives rise to the idea of resistance. By that logic the European countries should all be controlling each other for fear of ancient feuds like their ancestors use to have or even going back to world war - otherwise whats the solution, to have constant control and restrictions on a segment of the population for ever akin to an apartheid state - in the 21st century? By a 'developed' country like Israel?

 

''driven by a religious fanatic approach like major part of the Palestinian society.'' Hamas combatants are estimated between 15'000-40'000 in a population of roughly 2million. If we take the highest estimate of 40'000 thats 2% of the population. That isn't a major representation of Palestinian society.  So to tackle 40'000 combatants its justified to strip 2million innocents half of which are children of electricity food and water and be difficult in allowing in aid at the Egypt border? From a so called 'developed' society which has broken and still breaks countless human right laws and when a bomb of a report comes out such as the Goldstone report that would expose and pressure the world on Israel, Mr Goldstone later backtracks on it probably due to blackmail via Mossad.

 

Israel can do what US did in Middle East operations by going in with special forces to take out Hamas rather than destroying the whole place. Hamas are underground in bunkers mostly not being affected anyway, and giving a warning of 24 hours is not enough time for a 1million people to move in masses to the South, especially when their route and envoy of movement is attacked. So 'developed'. What are the incubators with babies meant to do also?

This is the exact perception I tried to appose. You think that saying occupation immediately leads to a clear moral stance because of a bias towards sympathizing with the weak. This is an oversimplification and a simplistic approach to complex conflicts and politics. When the US occupied Japan and Germany, was it an occupation? Yes. Were they automatically the oppressors and villains? No. The Us occupied them because the regimes were barbaric. The reason Japanese and German societies were able to recover from their occupation and the crises of WW2 was because they focused on rebuilding their own societies and set aside hostile, aggressive and barbaric agendas. This is not the case with Palestinian society. Their leadership consistently avoids taking responsibility, and the society repeatedly chooses irresponsible leaders. You mention European countries but this conception fails to understand the state of the Palestinian society. The reality is that if Israel were to withdraw from the West Bank, it could face an ISIS type organization at it's border. This is not an unrealistic fear, but the most reasonable possibility. You genuinely believe that the rout of the conflict an injustice done to the Palestinians and if they were just treated differently they would act differently. And you genuinely believe that the Palestinian society is fundamentally different from Hamas. These are misconceptions. Yes, Hamas's armed forces are not synonymous with the entire population, but their significant support among the people is not a trivial matter. Some regimes are utterly barbaric and some society are incapable of supporting and having a stable non barbaric regimes. Any life loving country would not allow such regime to establish at it's borders. Could Israel be nicer to Palestinians? Yes. Could Israel have a smarter policy? Certainly. Does that automatically assign blame to Israel as the malevolent occupier and hold them responsible for the failure of Palestinian society? No.

Regarding the final part of your statement, it seems you're offering military advice without a comprehensive understanding of warfare, particularly in situations involving organizations like Hamas, which strategically operate from hospitals, mosques, and densely populated areas. Your perception of warfare is unrealistic. Hamas has a huge hold over Gaza and cannot be easily neutralized through specialized marine operations alone. And Yes, when a governing body initiates an idiotic and barbaric attack as Hamas did, the people suffers. You expect Israel to be clean and flawless, but this is an unrealistic expectation that has never been met in the history of warfare. In relative terms, Israel's moral compass in targeting civilians holds up under examination, even though witnessing the actual images of collateral damage can be deeply distressing. Is there a potential that the response will get out of hand? yes. But as for this moment I don't think it's likely.

[zazen]

@DawnC  Were the Palestinians a barbaric regime when they got occupied? As Lina shared above via Mohamed Hadids example, Jews were accepted as refugees and in return they get second class treatment on their own land. 

 

What are the conditions that cause the lack of development? That needs to be rectified. 

How are they meant to develop when Israel hinders their development via siege and blockade.

https://press.un.org/en/2022/gaef3574.doc.htm

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/17/israeli-military-calorie-limit-gaza

 

Warfare is messy, especially urban warfare. This reaction from Israel only unifies the sunni-shia against them including a majority of the world and fracturing Israeli society itself also. Thats why their is no military solution to this, they may need to react to appease the angry Isreali's in a show of doing something, but then restrain themselves and try to solve the situation peacefully.

 

If Hamas and their actions represent the state of Palestinian society which is barely a functional democracy, would US foreign policy reflect the state of American society which is much more functional democracy representing the people.

 

Should we conflate the values/morality of US foreign policy and industry interest with the values/morality of its people?

Edited October 24, 2023 by zazen

[AerisVahnEphelia]

 @Nabd 

Interesting talk from Zizek, but I disagree on some parts.

No religious states shall ever exist.

No countries shall be based on cult values.

Humans are humans, and nationalism, religion, and tribalism are primitive concepts that should not be tolerated.

[PurpleTree]

funny thing with greens is

flags are bad, especially british etc

but palestinian flags are greaaat

nationalism bad but palestinian nationalism good

europeans say this is my country bring less foreigners is bad but palestinians say this is their country is good

i makes sense if their main “objective” is oppressioon and colonialism etc

but they dont care about uighurs, women in iran etc

[DawnC]

41 minutes ago, zazen said:

@DawnC  Were the Palestinians a barbaric regime when they got occupied? As Lina shared above via Mohamed Hadids example, Jews were accepted as refugees and in return they get second class treatment on their own land. 

@zazen

To some extent, yes. There wasn't actually a Palestinian regime when Israel was established, and even for a long period afterwards. The Palestinian national movement arose in reaction to Zionism, and they had somewhat of a central leadership (not in the same way it exists in the Western world) not long before the 1948 war. The Palestinian leadership was engaged in violence against the Zionist settlements before there were states (under the British Mandate), and their leadership was irresponsible and rejected any sort of compromise. Not only that, they deliberately started a war. This war wasn't Palestine versus Israel as there were not exactly states. This was more of a civil war inside the territory of today's Israel, West Bank, and Gaza, with large support from surrounding Arab countries to the Palestinians led by Egypt. Yes, in that war, tragedies like the one you mentioned happened, but when you examine the actions of the Israelis compared to different conflicts from around that time (1948), they were relatively moral. The reason for the war was the inability of the Palestinian leadership to compromise and their belief that they could eliminate the Jewish settlements all around the territory. By the way, I'm not speaking from a judgmental point of view. They actually believed that they could remove the Zionists and didn't want to share the land. War, in that case, is a relevant strategic option. The thing is, they lost. And when you start a war in order to eliminate your opponent and reject any peace and compromise proposal, the tragedies war bears are on you. Is that the same as the Nazis? I don't think so. Is it barbaric, untrustworthy, and suggesting they hold little value for peace? Yes.

Not only that, but in the period from 1948 to 1967, the Palestinians were not actually occupied by Israel. They were occupied by Jordan and Egypt, and the Palestinians that remained in Israel received civil rights (though clearly Israel could have done much more to help its Arab citizens, and is doing much more today). The Six Day War was initiated by Israel after the Arab world, led by Gamal Abdel Nasser, posed a serious threat to Israel's existence (he was able to unite the Arab world in the efforts of conquering Israel). That's where the Occupation as we know it started. Is it morally wrong to occupy land from Jordan and Egypt in a defensive war? I don't believe so. The agreements Israel had with Egypt and Jordan make the question of territory quite irrelevant. Are the Palestinians to blame for the Arab world's aggression? In part, yes. They supported that policy and engaged in it. The Palestine Liberation Army (subject to the PLO) took part in these aggressions as its goal was not to free the West Bank and Gaza but to conquer Israel entirely.

Here we have the most controversial part. Israel couldn't afford giving citizenship to the entire Palestinian population in the West Bank (because it would literally mean the destruction of Israel), and Jordan did not want it (the same way Egypt didn't want the Gaza strip when Israel returned Sinai to Egypt). Here, I do think that Israel made two major mistakes that make it partly responsible. The first was the Military Governorate that resulted in contact between civilians and soldiers (here I'm talking about the way it was arranged and not the seizing of the territory itself), and the second was settling in the middle of the West Bank, especially the settlements that disrupt the continuity of the territory heavily populated by Palestinians. Israel's policy was not very strategically smart, but from a broader moral perspective, the difference between the societies reveals itself again as the Military Governorate was ended because of major intrinsic pressure from the Israeli society and the Israeli leadership was engaged in attempts for peace and compromise, suggesting even almost full return of the West Bank and Gaza. All compromise proposals were rejected by the Palestinian leadership. Almost every move Israel made to give the Palestinians more freedom and control resulted in further radicalization. 

Yes, when you lose a war for which you are responsible, you have to show signs and seeds of wanting to end the war to regain your territory and freedom as a society. The Palestinians failed at this consistently.

1 hour ago, zazen said:

What are the conditions that cause the lack of development? That needs to be rectified. 

How are they meant to develop when Israel hinders their development via siege and blockade.

These are valid questions. I don't think that Israel's policy around Gaza and the West Bank is meant to prevent development but to ensure they do not organize militarily. If the Palestinians in Gaza were focused on development after Israel left the territory in 2005, Gaza would have looked totally different. Their failure and hostile and barbaric approach is mostly self-induced.

2 hours ago, zazen said:

Warfare is messy, especially urban warfare. This reaction from Israel only unifies the sunni-shia against them including a majority of the world and fracturing Israeli society itself also. Thats why their is no military solution to this, they may need to react to appease the angry Isreali's in a show of doing something, but then restrain themselves and try to solve the situation peacefully.

The first point is true. I think that the Israeli and US leadership takes this into consideration.

You think in terms of "what is the solution to this situation?", but the reality is that some problems are such that certain situations do not have a solution in the sense that you can do something and the problem would disappear. There is no definitive solution to poverty. There is no definitive solution to criminal activity. Can they be reduced to a level that can be tolerated? Probably yes. If you believe that a peaceful resolution is possible with an organization like Hamas, you may misunderstand the fundamentals of their mindset. Some people are utterly barbaric. When someone comes to rape, seeking a peaceful resolution may not be the most practical option, because the threat is inherently barbaric.

2 hours ago, zazen said:

If Hamas represent the state of Palestinain society which is barely a function democracy, would that still be applied to US foreign policy reflecting the state of American society which is a democracy representing the people. Should we conflate the values/morality of US foreign policy and industry interest with the values/morality of its people?

In some cases, yes. In others, no. It depends on the issue. Sometimes completely separating society from the government is not very smart. Before the 'Arab Spring,' it was thought that the problem lay with the regimes, and if you would just let the people choose, Arab countries would flourish. This was a common misconception that stems from the same mindset you are holding now. In most cases, what came after the rulers were overthrown was worse because the root of the problem was the society.

[Scholar]

Look, a mature person's take on the issue:

https://barackobama.medium.com/my-statement-on-israel-and-gaza-a6c397f09a30

 

Quote

It’s been 17 days since Hamas launched its horrific attack against Israel, killing over 1,400 Israeli citizens, including defenseless women, children and the elderly. In the aftermath of such unspeakable brutality, the U.S. government and the American people have shared in the grief of families, prayed for the return of loved ones, and rightly declared solidarity with the Israeli people.

As I stated in an earlier post, Israel has a right to defend its citizens against such wanton violence, and I fully support President Biden’s call for the United States to support our long-time ally in going after Hamas, dismantling its military capabilities, and facilitating the safe return of hundreds of hostages to their families.

But even as we support Israel, we should also be clear that how Israel prosecutes this fight against Hamas matters. In particular, it matters — as President Biden has repeatedly emphasized — that Israel’s military strategy abides by international law, including those laws that seek to avoid, to every extent possible, the death or suffering of civilian populations. Upholding these values is important for its own sake — because it is morally just and reflects our belief in the inherent value of every human life. Upholding these values is also vital for building alliances and shaping international opinion — all of which are critical for Israel’s long-term security.

This is an enormously difficult task. War is always tragic, and even the most carefully planned military operations often put civilians at risk. As President Biden noted during his recent visit to Israel, America itself has at times fallen short of our higher values when engaged in war, and in the aftermath of 9/11, the U.S. government wasn’t interested in heeding the advice of even our allies when it came to the steps we took to protect ourselves against Al Qaeda. Now, after the systematic massacre of Israeli citizens, a massacre that evokes some of the darkest memories of persecution against the Jewish people, it’s understandable that many Israelis have demanded that their government do whatever it takes to root out Hamas and make sure such attacks never happen again. Moreover, Hamas’ military operations are deeply embedded within Gaza — and its leadership seems to intentionally hide among civilians, thereby endangering the very people they claim to represent.

Still, the world is watching closely as events in the region unfold, and any Israeli military strategy that ignores the human costs could ultimately backfire. Already, thousands of Palestinians have been killed in the bombing of Gaza, many of them children. Hundreds of thousands have been forced from their homes. The Israeli government’s decision to cut off food, water and electricity to a captive civilian population threatens not only to worsen a growing humanitarian crisis; it could further harden Palestinian attitudes for generations, erode global support for Israel, play into the hands of Israel’s enemies, and undermine long term efforts to achieve peace and stability in the region.

It’s therefore important that those of us supporting Israel in its time of need encourage a strategy that can incapacitate Hamas while minimizing further civilian casualties. Israel’s recent shift to allow relief trucks into Gaza, prompted in part by the Biden administration’s behind-the-scenes diplomacy, is an encouraging step, but we need to continue to lead the international community in accelerating critical aid and supplies to an increasingly desperate Gaza population. And while the prospects of future peace may seem more distant than ever, we should call on all of the key actors in the region to engage with those Palestinian leaders and organizations that recognize Israel’s right to exist to begin articulating a viable pathway for Palestinians to achieve their legitimate aspirations for self-determination — because that is the best and perhaps only way to achieve the lasting peace and security most Israeli and Palestinian families yearn for.

Finally, in dealing with what is an extraordinarily complex situation where so many people are in pain and passions are understandably running high, all of us need to do our best to put our best values, rather than our worst fears, on display.

That means actively opposing anti-semitism in all its forms, everywhere. It means rejecting efforts to minimize the terrible tragedy that the Israeli people have just endured, as well as the morally-bankrupt suggestion that any cause can somehow justify the deliberate slaughter of innocent people.

It means rejecting anti-Muslim, anti-Arab or anti-Palestinian sentiment. It means refusing to lump all Palestinians with Hamas or other terrorist groups. It means guarding against dehumanizing language towards the people of Gaza, or downplaying Palestinian suffering — whether in Gaza or the West Bank — as irrelevant or illegitimate.

It means recognizing that Israel has every right to exist; that the Jewish people have claim to a secure homeland where they have ancient historical roots; and that there have been instances in which previous Israeli governments made meaningful efforts to resolve the dispute and provide a path for a two-state solution — efforts that were ultimately rebuffed by the other side.

It means acknowledging that Palestinians have also lived in disputed territories for generations; that many of them were not only displaced when Israel was formed but continue to be forcibly displaced by a settler movement that too often has received tacit or explicit support from the Israeli government; that Palestinian leaders who’ve been willing to make concessions for a two-state solution have too often had little to show for their efforts; and that it is possible for people of good will to champion Palestinian rights and oppose certain Israeli government policies in the West Bank and Gaza without being anti-semitic.

Perhaps most of all, it means we should choose not to always assume the worst in those with whom we disagree. In an age of constant rancor, trolling and misinformation on social media, at a time when so many politicians and attention seekers see an advantage in shedding heat rather than light, it may be unrealistic to expect respectful dialogue on any issue — much less on an issue with such high stakes and after so much blood has been spilled. But if we care about keeping open the possibility of peace, security and dignity for future generations of Israeli and Palestinian children — as well as for our own children — then it falls upon all of us to at least make the effort to model, in our own words and actions, the kind of world we want them to inherit.

Barack Obama

[Nivsch]

29 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Look, a mature person's take on the issue:

https://barackobama.medium.com/my-statement-on-israel-and-gaza-a6c397f09a30

 

Barack Obama

Quite agree with him.

[Happy Lizard]

I’m learning so much, This is great, I’m glad I gave this thread another chance. 

you all are doing great with some of these posts I’ve read here. Very informative.

[Lila9]

18 hours ago, DawnC said:

Being the stronger side doesn't automatically make you the aggressor. If you believe that if Israel were to withdraw from the West Bank, Palestinians would adopt a 'live and let live' mindset like yours, you are living in a dream world. Israel's continued control is primarily fueled by its citizens' fear of a recurrence of what happened in Gaza (rather than being driven by a religious fanatic approach like major part of the Palestinian society). This perspective overlooks the societal structures, levels of development, and values held by both Israelis and Palestinians, as it's emotionally easier to sympathize with the weaker side.

edit:

His suggested solution is ridiculous. It is a 'La La Land' approach that will never work.

Israel is not without fault, but his accusations are exaggerated, and he appears to lack an understanding of the realities of war.

People don't understand that in Israel's situation, there is no such thing as not occupying Palestine and being safe. It's either occupying Palestine and being secure or not occupying it and being subjected to the most horrific ways of murder.

Where did Hamas horrible attack come from? Did it come from the occupied area or not? Of course it came from the non occupied area where Palestinians have free hand and guess what?

All those who think that if Israel would only not occupy the West Bank, everything will be good and peaceful are severely deluded. If they are not deluded and understand that non-occupation would lead to the murder of innocent Israeli civilians and still support non-occupation, they are literally antisemitic.

[Happy Lizard]

1 hour ago, Scholar said:

Look, a mature person's take on the issue:

https://barackobama.medium.com/my-statement-on-israel-and-gaza-a6c397f09a30

 

Barack Obama

Best take. Acknowledging both sides. Just great.

[Happy Lizard]

32 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

Israel's continued control is primarily fueled by its citizens' fear of a recurrence of what happened in Gaza (rather than being driven by a religious fanatic approach

*Not defending any side here*

would Israel be more secure if Gaza was occupied or kept under control? I feel like thats a good idea in theory, I don’t really understand the situation well enough to say this should be done or not in theory, but I can only imagine that that was not a good mesure for the Israeli government to not keep Gaza under-check, while at the same time allowing some development to happen. why was Gaza left on it’s own and then blockade? It might have been a historical mistake, but it seems like the approch is -this is what it’s seeming to me at least -“we either watch you, keep you under control, which will means a better life and an opportunity for growth/breath” or “we leave you on your own, show as what you’ve got, but then cut you form the outside world” naturally a person like environment is going to be … well,  a prison-like-environment, where red militia will thrive. This explains to me why the west bank seems to be a doing bit better.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Happy Lizard

[Scholar]

This is a little worrisome:

https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/HHP_Oct23_KeyResults.pdf

 

Over 50% of 18-24 aged participants answer Hamas mass murder of over 1,200 Israeli civilians can be justified.

This is US registered voters by the way.

 

@Leo Gura

Is it just me or does image embedding not work anymore?

Edited October 24, 2023 by Scholar

[hundreth]

1 hour ago, Scholar said:

This is a little worrisome:

https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/HHP_Oct23_KeyResults.pdf

 

Over 50% of 18-24 aged participants answer Hamas mass murder of over 1,200 Israeli civilians can be justified.

This is US registered voters by the way.

 

@Leo Gura

Is it just me or does image embedding not work anymore?

Truly insane. There was a lot of talk about indoctrination from our educational systems, but I thought it was mostly right wing propaganda until now.

36% of people 18-24 don't even believe it was a terrorist attack. Half of the youth sides with HAMAS specifically, not even Palestinians in general. Half the people up to age 34 believe the hamas killings could be justified. WTF.

Edited October 24, 2023 by hundreth