New War In Israel / Gaza

[Raze]

24 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

That's true. I'm trying to understand US foreign policy, but it's difficult. It seems stupid but probably it is most likely a search for profit and influence. the same in ukraine, very difficult to understand

Lawrence Wright had some balanced books on US motivations in the Middle East and Islamic extremism, they are 13 days, looming tower, and terror years.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Raze

[PurpleTree]

25 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

That's true. I'm trying to understand US foreign policy, but it's difficult. It seems stupid but probably it is most likely a search for profit and influence. the same in ukraine, very difficult to understand

For ukraine there are many reasons. But mostly the ukranians want to move away from russia and closer to the west. And putin like a violent boyfriend can’t allow it

[Breakingthewall]

6 minutes ago, Raze said:

Lawrence Wright had some balanced books on US motivations in the Middle East and Islamic extremism, they are 13 days, looming tower, and terror years.

I will check 

4 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

For ukraine there are many reasons. But mostly the ukranians want to move away from russia and closer to the west. And putin like a violent boyfriend can’t allow it

That's what it seems on the surface, but the reality is that the US presses until the rope breaks, see for example Oliver Stone's documentary Ukraine in Flames. It is true that he is a very biased guy, but still.

[PurpleTree]

10 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

I will check 

That's what it seems on the surface, but the reality is that the US presses until the rope breaks, see for example Oliver Stone's documentary Ukraine in Flames. It is true that he is a very biased guy, but still.

Certainly russia is us’s adversary so if they can weaken them they’ll usually do it

[Vrubel]

2 hours ago, Raze said:

What you’re saying is ridiculous. Just posting a street video in Gaza is not proof life there is “good”. Due to the blockade they have a 50% unemployment rate, the constant wars and violence have caused 70% of the population to have PTSD, over 90% of the water sources are contaminated, Israel limits the food they get on purpose to keep them hungry. No one can develop in such a scenario.

Oh please... nobody was keeping them hungry. Even if they didn't turn Gaza into a Singapore they still could have had meaningful, decent, loving lives with their families and healthy Islam, maybe even a high-paying job in Israel. 

Any piece of land ruled by Hamas must be sealed off, Egypt understands this too. Israel provided Gaza with everything from food to energy. They definitely could have chosen a better life. Sorry, but your victim card expires after rape and torture.
Israel will do what it has to, to ensure this never happens again. In the meanwhile Gazan civilians have to suffer along. Like what did they expect? this is not rocket science or some intricate poetic justice. They choose this in the most literal sense. Why? because they are as dumb as a cork. 

Israel is doing its best to minimize civilian causalities for PR, diplomatic and practical reasons if not humanitarian. But yeah isn't it plainly obvious that Gaza brought this war onto themselves?

Edited October 22, 2023 by Vrubel

[PurpleTree]

4 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Certainly russia is us’s adversary so if they can weaken them they’ll usually do it

And if the us can get ukraine into their orbit that’s a huge win. But it’s also what most Ukrainians want.

who’s next? Maybe georgia, armenia, kazakhstan?

 

[Raze]

36 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Oh please... nobody was keeping them hungry. Even if they didn't turn Gaza into a Singapore they still could have had meaningful, decent, loving lives with their families and healthy Islam, maybe even a high-paying job in Israel. 

Any piece of land ruled by Hamas must be sealed off, Egypt understands this too. Israel provided Gaza with everything from food to energy. They definitely could have chosen a better life. Sorry, but your victim card expires after rape and torture.
Israel will do what it has to, to ensure this never happens again. In the meanwhile Gazan civilians have to suffer along. Like what did they expect? this is not rocket science or some intricate poetic justice. They choose this in the most literal sense. Why? because they are as dumb as a cork. 

Israel is doing its best to minimize civilian causalities for PR, diplomatic and practical reasons if not humanitarian. But yeah isn't it plainly obvious that Gaza brought this war onto themselves?

I posted plenty of details on how specific Israel policies limited economic development and food, you can ignore it if you like, doesn’t make it any less true. It’s a fact they limit imports, it’s a fact they’ve officially said they purposefully did it to put them on a diet. Ignoring this is just silly, even Israel’s government doesn’t argue this case, they just justify it as necessary.

Israeli officials already said they are not minimizing civilian casualties, their aim is to cause as much damage as possible.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/damning-evidence-of-war-crimes-as-israeli-attacks-wipe-out-entire-families-in-gaza/

Gaza brought the war on itself in the same way blacks in Africa rebelling in apartheid brought brutal crackdowns and violence on themselves. Apartheid states react.

I really don’t see how you can keep calling Israel intelligent when they failed to stop a massive attack from the most surveyed population in the world and have now provoked their neighbors to the point where they’re at risk of a war with Hezbollah while also preparing to occupy Gaza on the ground. They’ve stupidly sacrificed their own safety again to harm Palestinians.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Raze

[Vrubel]

@Raze You're just exaggerating and not seeing the situation for what it is, If Israel wanted they could have already decimated the Palestinian population. Provoking neigbors? Notice how Israel not touching any neighbors that do not have terrorist organizations operating in it. 

[Raze]

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1715058919763259904?s=20

https://twitter.com/DCIPalestine/status/1716107108997865630?s=20

https://twitter.com/MintPressNews/status/1715404247229964598?s=20

https://twitter.com/luo_yuehan/status/1715790481681011197?s=20

https://twitter.com/Timesofgaza/status/1715846210597106147?s=20

https://twitter.com/Timesofgaza/status/1716121649936740569?s=20

[Vrubel]

@Raze Yes, those people are dying because of Hamas. 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Vrubel

[Raze]

17 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

@Raze You're just exaggerating and not seeing the situation for what it is, If Israel wanted they could have already decimated the Palestinian population. Provoking neigbors? Notice how Israel not touching any neighbors that do not have terrorist organizations operating in it. 

No, I’m not. What you are saying is just truly idiotic. You’re literally just declaring Palestinians have low economic development because they’re “dumb” ignoring mountains of evidence they are purposefully limited, you haven’t responded to a single piece of evidence I posted in the original comment. 

3 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

@Raze Yes, those people are dying because of Hamas. 

Then the people in Israel who died, died because the IDF run an apartheid state 

[Breakingthewall]

28 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

If Israel wanted they could have already decimated the Palestinian population

It cannot because it depends on public opinion and its ally the US. What it does is provoke them. In the West Bank it expands little by little, sending radical settlers supported by the police and the army to live with the Palestinians, simple people attached to the land who are displaced.

Gaza, well... it seems that it promoted Hamas, and this attack is incredible. Egypt warned them, they already knew it, and the most effective army in the world did not have even a few soldiers guarding it. no one, not even a camera. less than any merchant in his warehouse. who believes that?

[Vrubel]

@Breakingthewall Oke, but I think I already made my points

-Palestinians are not absolutely oppressed and have free will, substantial power, and exceptional world sympathy. 

-Israel bears responsibility to its own people and the conflict, even when it fails it is still responsible and carries the heavy burden of either the massive intelligence blunder or the crumbling of world support because of bad policies and leadership.

-The Palestinians don't take responsibility for shit. Hamas is literally throwing its own people under the bus. Before the war half of Israel was protesting against the right-wing government but nobody in the Arab world is holding Hamas or the Palestinians responsible, this tells you everything about their integrity and commitment to morality in this highly selective outrage.  

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Vrubel

[zazen]

@Vrubel Norman Finkelstein is worth listening to.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6w249X-uaxQ&pp=ygUcTm9ybWFuIGZpbmtsZXN0ZWluIGludGVydmlldw%3D%3D

Power corrupts, but persecution by the hands of the powerful also corrupts those being persecuted.

Definition of terrorist: a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

Now apply that at scale and you can see there exists such a thing as a terrorist state ie Israel.

Even if we leave aside Gaza - what’s happening in the West Bank is against international law, intimidating, inhumane, and in pursuit of political aims especially emboldened by Ben Gvir who was once a pariah of Isreali politics and even rejected by the IDF for how radical he was.

And West Bank is supposedly where Palestinians were supposed to live peacefully or “coexist.”

Just so you know, I condemn the Hamas attack - but I also condemn the conditions that brought it about, including those who orchestrated those conditions.

Edited October 22, 2023 by zazen

[Breakingthewall]

3 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

@Breakingthewall Oke, but I think I already made my points

-Palestinians are not absolutely oppressed and have free will, substantial power, and exceptional world sympathy. 

-Israel bears responsibility to its own people and the conflict, even when it fails it is still responsible and carries the heavy burden of either the massive intelligence blunder or the crumbling of world support because of bad policies and leadership.

-The Palestinians don't take responsibility for shit. Hamas is literally throwing its own people under the bus. Before the war half of Israel was protesting against the right-wing government but nobody in the Arab world is holding Hamas or the Palestinians responsible, this tells you everything about their integrity and commitment to morality in this highly selective outrage.  

 

Of course, for the Muslim world, Muslims are their team and whatever they do they support them. They are...well, not too smart, that's why they have Islamic governments and if a woman goes without a hood they kill her and stuff, we already know that.

But Israel is demonstrating quite a bit of evil. I guess it's normal, it's how the world works. But if we value who is on the good side on a moral level, we must delve deeper into Israel's attitude, and one could say that it is the attitude of a covert enemy with which the Palestinians live. an enemy that carries out covert acts of war, that abuses and kills, but little by little, without being noticed.

[Happy Lizard]

49 minutes ago, Raze said:

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1715058919763259904?s=20

https://twitter.com/DCIPalestine/status/1716107108997865630?s=20

https://twitter.com/MintPressNews/status/1715404247229964598?s=20

https://twitter.com/luo_yuehan/status/1715790481681011197?s=20

https://twitter.com/Timesofgaza/status/1715846210597106147?s=20

https://twitter.com/Timesofgaza/status/1716121649936740569?s=20

“They don’t target civilians directly” I don’t know what logic anybody on the case for Israel bombing Gaza is hiding behind saying this with a straight face. This is insanity. I’ve never seen anything like this.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Happy Lizard

[Danioover9000]

@Happy Lizard

1 minute ago, Happy Lizard said:

“They don’t target civilians directly” I don’t know what logic anybody on the case for Israel bombing Gaza is hiding behind saying this with a straight face. This is insanity. I’ve never seen anything like this.

   It's the same logic and rational used by the detective and the suspect.

   Detective: "Did you kill your GF?".

   Suspect: "Well, no. As I stated, she was sleeping peacefully.".

[Breakingthewall]

8 minutes ago, Happy Lizard said:

This is insanity. I’ve never seen anything like this.

Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it isn't happening all time in the middle east, the thing is that no one cares.

[Raze]

22 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

@Breakingthewall Oke, but I think I already made my points

-Palestinians are not absolutely oppressed and have free will, substantial power, and exceptional world sympathy. 

-Israel bears responsibility to its own people and the conflict, even when it fails it is still responsible and carries the heavy burden of either the massive intelligence blunder or the crumbling of world support because of bad policies and leadership.

-The Palestinians don't take responsibility for shit. Hamas is literally throwing its own people under the bus. Before the war half of Israel was protesting against the right-wing government but nobody in the Arab world is holding Hamas or the Palestinians responsible, this tells you everything about their integrity and commitment to morality in this highly selective outrage.  

 

1) What power and world sympathy do they have that matters? Israel has far more allies and controls anyones access to gaza. The best Palestinians have is Egypt which is largely on Israel’s side at this point and even warned Netenyahu about the attack.

3) Israel elects its government regularly, almost half of Gaza’s population wasn’t even born when they had their last election. If Israel gets to control what gets in and out of Gaza, they hold responsibility for it. Also Saudia Arabia condemned Hamas. What governments of influence there have condemned Israel? 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Raze

[Vrubel]

@zazen Oke, please read my above points. They cover this issue, otherwise, I will just keep on repeating myself. 

@Breakingthewall @Happy Lizard What did you expect war would be? Go up to a big black club bouncer and rape his daughter in front of him, let see how he reacts. Having said that, for Israel, civilians are not the target but they will certainly die and suffer along Hamas as is the nature of war with such an enemy.