New War In Israel / Gaza

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Nabd said:

I think they will back Iran up till the US agrees on negotiating with Iran and accepting its status as a nuclear power.

You don't think there will be war and that the United States will change the Iranian regime? I'm sure it would be a very short war. Iranians hate their regime

[Vrubel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk0rA4eW_4g&t=962s

This YouTube channel shows 4k walks through Gaza (before this war). I think many will be surprised at how normal it is. It actually has a nice Arabic vibe and great sand beaches. Gaza could have been a great tourist destination and some kind of special business zone like Singapore and Hong Kong. But instead, they chose Hamas. Palestinians gotta be some of the world's dumbest and most dysfunctional people. 

[Happy Lizard]

@Vrubel can I ask tou where do you live? This will make a huge difference on the way you view  Gaza, depending on the place you are used to live in. For example France cities has some of the best bakeries, social gathering, world class child-care, but Americans wouldn’t want to live in France, they would rather live in the US than not have their central heating/cooling and couldn’t simply live without their trucks.

tell an American they have to buy a gas cylinder and bring it up the stairs to then hook it up to their oven in order to cook and they’ll lose their minds — my point : it’s relative what you think is livable city, Gaza to the western world is dysfunctional.

also add to that Israeli would never allow tourism and all kind of imports and businesses to flourish, arabs flying in and out. That will freak them out security wise. If you’ve painted a group of people as dangerous you tend to see it this way forever, and then it comes and bites in your butt. Not bashing on your point, it’s stupid that Palestinians chose Hamas. But also this rosy picture you are painting is not completely feasible, and not all of it’s fault lie on Palestinians.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Happy Lizard

[PurpleTree]

Here’s an idea 

gaza should become part of turkey or jordan, passports and everything. Build a wall and peace can come. Tadaa

[BassamMo]

Ground operation seems like it'll be a huge risk for the fir the Israeli army. 40k hamas fighters who are ready to die as Leo said, will probably cause lots of damage to the idf, I don't care about both but I can imagine huge numbers of Palestinian civilians are going to die which is making me unable to live normally tbh 

[Raze]

46 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk0rA4eW_4g&t=962s

This YouTube channel shows 4k walks through Gaza (before this war). I think many will be surprised at how normal it is. It actually has a nice Arabic vibe and great sand beaches. Gaza could have been a great tourist destination and some kind of special business zone like Singapore and Hong Kong. But instead, they chose Hamas. Palestinians gotta be some of the world's dumbest and most dysfunctional people. 

Chomsky has also argued Gaza could be very economically successful

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoC7sRNkrlI

Edited October 22, 2023 by Raze

[BassamMo]

10 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Here’s an idea 

gaza should become part of turkey or jordan, passports and everything. Build a wall and peace can come. Tadaa

Two state solution is the only way for peace. Make Palestine without military and international forces will be there to secure its borders, the US and UN to give billions for Palestine to be a more developed country and we'll go from there...

[PurpleTree]

13 minutes ago, BassamMo said:

Two state solution is the only way for peace. Make Palestine without military and international forces will be there to secure its borders, the US and UN to give billions for Palestine to be a more developed country and we'll go from there...

First they should to get rid of hamas and islamists before countries should give them money for “development”

[Vrubel]

44 minutes ago, Happy Lizard said:

this rosy picture you are painting is not completely feasible, and not all of it’s fault lie on Palestinians.

It's not a rosy picture at all, I said "normal" life. Palestinians are just pretty lowbrow people who have not accomplished anything concrete despite being the world's "darling oppressed people". Where are the separate UN organizations or mass protests for Uighurs or Rohingya? They are being oppressed 1000* times worse than Palestinians. Incidently they are also Muslim. There are definitely intelligent and wise Arabs but the masses are pretty lowbrow not concerning themselves with matters of morality, honesty or intelligence. 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Vrubel

[PurpleTree]

6 minutes ago, Nabd said:

When Iranians took to the streets one would've thought that the west will back them up but they didn't. Even media coverage was very limited and soon enough after 1 month or so they almost completely stopped covering the SECULAR revolution in Iran against a terrorist regime as the west claims.

Yea it’s weird to me that leftists and stage green (i didn’t read sd i just assume that’s what they are) 

didn’t really protest in solidarity with this movement and human/womens rights etc in iran

[Breakingthewall]

20 minutes ago, Nabd said:

That's the reason I deeply distrust the US UK and France. We know for sure and we have the evidence that the UK and the US were behind the coup in Iran against the shah and they funded Shia clerics and now look at the mess they created.

When Iranians took to the streets one would've thought that the west will back them up but they didn't. Even media coverage was very limited and soon enough after 1 month or so they almost completely stopped covering the SECULAR revolution in Iran against a terrorist regime as the west claims.

foreign policy of the US and NATO in general is very difficult to understand. I suppose the reality is that there is only one motivation: economic benefit. any other consideration is irrelevant

[Raze]

56 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

It's not a rosy picture at all, I said "normal" life. Palestinians are just pretty lowbrow people who have not accomplished anything concrete despite being the world's "darling oppressed people". Where are the separate UN organizations or mass protests for Uighurs or Rohingya? They are being oppressed 1000* times worse than Palestinians. Incidently they are also Muslim. There are definitely intelligent and wise Arabs but the masses are pretty lowbrow not concerning themselves with matters of morality, honesty or intelligence. 

What you’re saying is ridiculous. Just posting a street video in Gaza is not proof life there is “good”. Due to the blockade they have a 50% unemployment rate, the constant wars and violence have caused 70% of the population to have PTSD, over 90% of the water sources are contaminated, Israel limits the food they get on purpose to keep them hungry. No one can develop in such a scenario. 
 

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The worsening economic and humanitarian situation raised great concern abroad. According to the UN Conference on Trade and Development (UNCTAD), in January 2003, the Israeli blockade and closures had drained as much as US$2.4 billion out of the economy of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.[142]

Throughout 2006, the Karni crossing was only partially operational, costing Palestinians $500,000 a day, as less than 10% of the Gaza Strip's minimal daily export targets were achieved. Basic food commodities were severely depleted, bakeries closed and food rationing was introduced.[143]

The World Bank estimated in 2015 that the GDP losses caused by the blockade since 2007 was above 50%, and entailed large welfare losses. Gaza's manufacturing sector, once significant, shrunk by as much as 60% in real terms, due to the wars in the past 20 years and the blockade. Gaza's exports virtually disappeared since the imposition of the 2007 blockade. It stated that "solutions have to be found to enable faster inflow of construction materials into Gaza", while taking into account "legitimate security concerns of neighboring countries."[144]

In May 2015, the World Bank reported that the Gaza economy was on the "verge of collapse". 40% of Gaza's population lived in poverty, even though around 80% received some sort of aid. It said the restrictions had to be eased to allow construction materials "to enter in sufficient quantities" and to allow exports. "The economy cannot survive without being connected to the outside world", The World Bank said the tightened restrictions meant the construction sector's output was reduced by 83%.[145]

Limitation of basic goods

Main article: Gaza imports

Israel allows limited humanitarian supplies from aid organizations into the Gaza Strip, but not dual-use items, which can also be used for military purposes. According to the Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories of the Israel Defense Forces, in May 2010, this included over 1.5 million litres of diesel fuel and gasoline, fruits and vegetables, wheat, sugar, meat, chicken and fish products, dairy products, animal feed, hygiene products, clothing and shoes.[197]

According to Gisha, items that have at various times been denied importation into Gaza in 2010 include ordinary consumer goods such as jam, candles, books, musical instruments, shampoo, A4 paper, and livestock such as chicken, donkeys, and cows.[198][199] The UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs also lists wheelchairs, dry food items, crayons, stationery, and soccer balls as shipments that Israeli authorities have prevented from entering Gaza.[200][201][202] International aid group Mercy Corps said it was blocked from sending 90 tons of macaroni and other foodstuffs. After international pressure, Israeli authorities said that they were giving the shipment a green light.[83] Israel was also reported to have prevented aid groups from sending in other items, such as paper, art supplies, tomato paste and lentils.[203] Because of an Israeli ban on the importation of construction materials such as cement and steel, which could be used to build bunkers for military use by Hamas, the UN Relief and Works Agency started to build mud brick homes.[204] Aid agencies[who?] say that food waits on trucks and in warehouses, and many basic items are rejected by Israel as "luxuries" or are turned down for unexplained reasons[citation needed]. "Tin" cans are banned because the steel from which they are made might be used to build weaponry or structures by Hamas, making it hard for Gazan farmers to preserve their vegetables.[205]At one time the only fruit allowed was bananas, allegedly[who?] because the Israeli official owned a banana plantation.[206][unreliable source?]

 

Effect on the fishing industry

Al Jazeera report on the effects on the fishing industry

The sea blockade has caused damage to Gaza fishing industry.

The UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs has estimated that Gaza fishermen need to journey at least 12–15 nautical miles from shore to catch larger shoals, and sardines in particular are 6 nmi (11 km) offshore. Shoals closer to shore have been depleted. The total catch pre-blockade in 1999 was nearly 4,000 tons, this was reduced to 2,700 tons in 2008. In the 90s, the Gaza fishing industry was worth $10 million annually or 4% of the total Palestinian economy; this was halved between 2001 and 2006. 45,000 Palestinians were employed in the fishing industry, employed in jobs such as catching fish, repairing nets and selling fish. Fish also provided much-needed animal protein to Gazans' diet.[192]

The International Committee of the Red Cross also notes that "90% of Gaza's 4000 fishermen are now considered either poor (with a monthly income of between US$100 and US$190) or very poor (earning less than US$100 a month), up from 50% in 2008." Nezar Ayyash, head of Gaza's fishermen's union, is quoted as saying that he has been arrested and his boat confiscated several times.[20] According to the Palestinian Fishermen's Syndicate, there are 3,800 registered fishermen in the Gaza Strip. Only 2,000 of them are currently working as a result of restrictions, constant attacks and growing cost of fishing equipment.

 

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Edited October 22, 2023 by Raze

[Raze]

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

You don't think there will be war and that the United States will change the Iranian regime? I'm sure it would be a very short war. Iranians hate their regime

Iraqi’s also hates their regime, Afghanistan citizens also hates the taliban regime. How short were those wars?

[Breakingthewall]

3 minutes ago, Raze said:

Iraqi’s also hates their regime, Afghanistan citizens also hates the taliban regime. How short were those wars?

Quite short, What is difficult, or impossible, is to keep a country occupied for decades. but the two regimes fell very quickly.

[Raze]

9 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Quite short, What is difficult, or impossible, is to keep a country occupied for decades. but the two regimes fell very quickly.

But the war *wasn’t* short, just taking out the regime and thinking that’ll solve your problems is wrong, it will create more.

[Breakingthewall]

24 minutes ago, Raze said:

But the war *wasn’t* short, just taking out the regime and thinking that’ll solve your problems is wrong, it will create more.

It depends, many Iraqis are happy that Saddam was overthrown. The Taliban regime can hardly be worse, it is like a dystopia. Unfortunately the Afghans were unable to establish a solid government and returned as soon as the United States left.

[Breakingthewall]

9 minutes ago, Nabd said:

The US invasion of Iraq achieved it's objective which was destroying the Iraqi army, state and institutions.

Why US had this objective? It seems that it was something arbitrary, although it surely was not like that.

[Breakingthewall]

@Nabd  

Yes, but after the first war Iraq did not was a threat, much less than Iran today, and even so it was invaded without any apparent benefit for the US, only problems and imbalance in the are.

It doesn't seem like there was a sufficient reason for something as serious as that invasion. Is it possible that it was just stupidity mixed with the ambitions of the weapons manufacturers? 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Raze]

33 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

It depends, many Iraqis are happy that Saddam was overthrown. The Taliban regime can hardly be worse, it is like a dystopia. Unfortunately the Afghans were unable to establish a solid government and returned as soon as the United States left.

59% of Iraqi’s said they preferred life in the previous regime, that doesn’t count the over 1 million killed.

Afghanistan’s situation is worse because not only did the war massacre huge amounts of them and destroy the country, they ended up with the Taliban in charge anyway.

The USA failed to install a solid government, it was unrealistic to expect Afghans to do it when the USA was limiting support and allowing huge amounts of corruption.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Raze

[Breakingthewall]

12 minutes ago, Raze said:

59% of Iraqi’s said they preferred life in the previous regime, that doesn’t count the over 1 million killed.

Afghanistan’s situation is worse because not only did the war massacre huge amounts of them and destroy the country, they ended up with the Taliban in charge anyway.

The USA failed to install a solid government, it was unrealistic to expect Afghans to do it when the USA was limiting support and allowing huge amounts of corruption.

That's true. I'm trying to understand US foreign policy, but it's difficult. It seems stupid but probably it is most likely a search for profit and influence. the same in ukraine, very difficult to understand