Posted October 21, 2023 @Breakingthewall why do you think that israel do what hamas wants? can you explain? 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 21, 2023 Very interesting podcast with Sam Harris on Israel/Palestine conflict: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 21, 2023 4 hours ago, Leo Gura said: You can literally put a mile of landmines around Gaza. That wouldn't help with all the rockets. Also, they could still build tunnels beneath the landmines. And Israel would still have to control the sea and air borders with Gaza so they wouldn't get rockets & other weapons from other countries. All that said, perhaps that's the best we can do for now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 21, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Nivsch said: @Breakingthewall why do you think that israel do what hamas wants? can you explain? What do you think was Hamas's objective in this attack? Do you think the extreme cruelty was not calculated? Surely they had orders to do so, provoking a brutal reaction from Israel. Israel reacting like this achieves nothing, only appears weak. It cannot destroy Gaza, everyone is watching, no one remembers the attacks anymore, everyone thinks about the children in the hospital, no one cares that this is a lie, they want to believe the weak victim. All Muslims support them and many non-Muslims seem to be brave heroes fighting for their freedom. Israel seems like the villain, bombing children. and also extremely inefficient, allowing the attack. If Hamas could do that, would it be so difficult to pass a suitcase with a nuke? Islamic fanatics dare anything, death is what they like. How to live in Israel with that threat? It would have been much better to lock them up, not let anyone out, show restraint, make the world see that the Islamists are monsters, reinforce security as much as possible. Thus Israel could have continued expanding through the West Bank with the excuse of Palestinian evil. That's being smart, calculate, don't react by impulse. It's supposed that jews are the smart here and Arabs the stupid, but seems the opposite, the stupid Netanyahu talking about revenge, the other minister about human animals... after that horrible mistake in security. Seems very unprofessional, they have to run the most difficult county in the world and seems a couple of Stupids Edited October 21, 2023 by Breakingthewall Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 21, 2023 2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said: I know that Israel don't kill civilians deliberately, but is killing civilians due an horrible security mistake. Are you for real or you're biased? I've seen numerous videos that seem to show Israel is a "Terrorist" state Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 21, 2023 (edited) @Breakingthewall Your whole post is extremely biased and racist. What Israel should do is realize its policies only create and enforce terrorists. They should stop expanding their land, give back some land to the Palestinians and give same legal rights to Palestinians. Same way white americans did to afro americans. This will ease the hatred towards Israel and move things towards a better future. It is the least Israel can do to cleanse its sins since 70 years ago. Just like Germany did. Otherwise keep doing things the same way and endure terrorist attacks forever. Edited October 21, 2023 by Karmadhi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 21, 2023 (edited) @Breakingthewall I hear that hamas didnt know they will "succeed" so much. They thought idf will definitely wait for them. Thats why i think this wasn't calculated. They are brutal and no so strategic in their thinking. The world today understands Israel more than ever. This is not so black and white as you represent it. Israel has to respect itself first and foremost if want to be respected long term. The muslim world tend to support the palestinians of course but many of them still not supporting to such cruel things hamas did. Edited October 21, 2023 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 21, 2023 (edited) @Nivsch Nobody supports Hamas but many liberals in the west support Palestine. Nobody supports Hamas though especially their last mass murder. Liberals support Palestinian childreen being blown up and starved because Israel can and the world does not bother to help them much Edited October 21, 2023 by Karmadhi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 21, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Karmadhi said: @Breakingthewall Your whole post is extremely biased and racist. What Israel should do is realize its policies only create and enforce terrorists. They should stop expanding their land, give back some land to the Palestinians and give same legal rights to Palestinians. Same way white americans did to afro americans. This will ease the hatred towards Israel and move things towards a better future. Otherwise keep doing things the same way and endure terrorist attacks forever. Israel has tried this many many times during 90's and 00's and the palestinians ALWAYS said NO and sent even more suicide bombers. Edited October 21, 2023 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 21, 2023 (edited) @Mesopotamian A very bad assumption that nobody gives a shit about them. Baseless assumption. People attach a lot of meaning to these sites. From your perspective, you see it as a delusion. Most people don’t. Edited October 21, 2023 by HMD "The wise seek wisdom, a fool has found it." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 21, 2023 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Nivsch said: hear that hamas didnt know they will "succeed" so much. It seems like they knew they could get to the rave. I suppose they knew about Israel's security failure, otherwise they wouldn't have done that thing with the paragliders, everything seemed calculated. Of course they don't know for sure the result of an action when they start it, but luck is with them. I bet they will release hostages and they would say: we were treated with respect, all public relations. Israel's public relations are the defense minister saying "human animals", maybe they should say they are the ubermenchen. It seems like they do it intentionally. Seen from the outside, all this seems like a strange low quality movie. 27 minutes ago, Karmadhi said: They should stop expanding their land, give back some land to the Palestinians and give same legal rights to Palestinians When I said the opposite? Edited October 21, 2023 by Breakingthewall Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 21, 2023 @Nivsch I am sorry that your country is going through this, it is something that is probably deeply affecting all Israelis. I hope the government can react rationally and intelligently. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 21, 2023 46 minutes ago, Karmadhi said: and give same legal rights to Palestinians. everything is very simple. If you are a Jew, the Israelis are right, and if you are a Muslim, the Muslims are right. But things are not like that, if Israel gives the Palestinians the right to vote and they win the elections, then they would expel the Israelis. the Palestinians are hostile to the Israelis from the beginning. It is not a question of whether they are right or not, it is a question of facts and looking at things objectively. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 21, 2023 11 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said: the Palestinians are hostile to the Israelis from the beginning If you go and settle in another country and take over, isn’t it obvious that they’d become hostile? I mean, the jews were warned “The bride is beautiful, but she is married to another man” "The wise seek wisdom, a fool has found it." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 21, 2023 After this ‘war’ Israel will face its own civil unrest, it’s a divided country due to the far right and new laws/powers. A few points that could have led to the Hamas attack - The IDF got complacent and their focus was on the West Bank due to increasing settler violence ( why it took hours for them to get to the south ) - Jewish holiday so a lot of Israelis were possibly distracted - Hamas was losing in the approval polls of Gazans, big drop in approval in the past 2-3 years - this attack would re-establish their dominance. - Saudi (the leader of the Sunni Islamic world) normalising ties with Israel and looking towards the Abraham accords which sidelines the Palestinians - they couldn’t allow this to go ahead. - Bibis judicial changes and more of far right government forming with increased powers for laws to be used to discriminating against Arab Israelis and increase settlements further. The Hamas attack was awful. Just imagine - these guys were literally born into an open air prison, never stepped outside of their walls, no work or economy or hopes. Just pacing back and forth figuring a way out, and being told of the history that this was their land a century ago and now they’re literally treated as subhuman on it. Then you take sentences out of the Quran and interpret them in a way to divinely legitimise their pain and villanize the Jews. The moment they escape from their slavery, they see people partying rite on the border, nice homes and clean streets - a life that could have been theirs. Then they remember their brothers, sisters, mothers or father who were killed by the IDF, and vengeance and barbarity take them over. Do you condemn the Hamas attack? Everyone’s asking this as if to insult peoples moral compass and establish a moral high ground. Of course most sane people condemn it. What should further be condemned however, is the conditions that caused it and to emancipate the Palestinians from their suffering. Theirs a difference between peace and liberation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 21, 2023 22 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said: Palestinians are hostile to the Israelis from the beginning @BreakingthewallCan you give me any examples of this or proof to back this statement? "The wise seek wisdom, a fool has found it." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 21, 2023 27 minutes ago, HMD said: If you go and settle in another country and take over, isn’t it obvious that they’d become hostile? I mean, the jews were warned “The bride is beautiful, but she is married to another man” Sure ,but it's been 100 years and there are millions. You have to be realistic and look for possible solutions 17 minutes ago, HMD said: @BreakingthewallCan you give me any examples of this or proof to back this statement? 1 hour ago, Karmadhi said: just look at history, I'm not saying they don't have motives, just that they are hostile. The first terrorist attack was in 1920, since then, without pause Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 21, 2023 @Breakingthewall okay so they became hostile due to a reason right? If you want to make things better then one would start by undoing whatever caused that hostility. But Israelis have refused to do this. They have failed plenty of times to let go of Gaza. "The wise seek wisdom, a fool has found it." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 21, 2023 10 minutes ago, HMD said: @Breakingthewall okay so they became hostile due to a reason right? If you want to make things better then one would start by undoing whatever caused that hostility. But Israelis have refused to do this. They have failed plenty of times to let go of Gaza. Israel evacuate from gaza in 2005 letting them do all they want like an independent state. In 90's and 00's israel has suggested huge withdrawals including to 67' borders and part of jesusalem to be the palestinian's state capital. Non of the suggestion were accepted by the palestinians and the terror even increased after the peace negotiations. 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 21, 2023 (edited) @Nivsch “Following the withdrawal, Israel continues to maintain direct control over Gaza's air and maritime space, six of Gaza's seven land crossings, maintains a no-go buffer zone within the territory, controls the Palestinian population registry, and Gaza remains dependent on Israel for its water, electricity, telecommunications, and other utilities“ that’s from 2005. Also, the terrorism was caused by Hamas. Hamas, an organization that Israel created. Edited October 21, 2023 by HMD "The wise seek wisdom, a fool has found it." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
