New War In Israel / Gaza

[Lila9]

Son of Hamas leader, Mosab Hassan Yousef breaks silence on decision to denounce terror group: 'They don't care' about Palestinians:

https://www.foxnews.com/media/son-hamas-leader-breaks-silence-decision-denounce-terror-group-care-palestinians

He says:

Quote

I was born at the heart of Hamas leadership… and I know them very well. They don't care for the Palestinian people. They do not regard the human life," Yousef told Brian Kilmeade Thursday. 

I saw their brutality firsthand back in 1996 when I spent about a year and a half in Megiddo Prison… They killed so many Palestinian people at that point, and this is when I decided that I cannot be together with this movement.

I had to be honest with myself. Even though Hamas gave me advantages…. I was like a prince in that world… but I did not like them," he continued. "I turned against even my own blood… because this is how much I did not like Hamas, and today, 25 years later, they are the rulers of Gaza, and we see what they are capable of doing.

Hamas is not a national movement. Hamas is a religious movement with a goal to establish an Islamic state, They don't care for nationalism. Actually, they are against nationalism. But that's my understanding that they are using the Palestinian cause only to achieve their goals, so the long-term goal… [is] transforming the Middle East and the world into an Islamic state.

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Lila9

[Hatfort]

I'm sharing Piers Morgan's debate with Hasan Piker. Both are taking sides, I don't think that's bad. There are some darts, but I like they allow each other to talk and explain.

About the Hospital, in further examination of two separate video captures of what Israel has pointed to be a misfired rocket falling, analysts say it looks more to be a rocket being intercepted by the Iron Dome and exploding in the air. If something caused 500 deaths, that wasn't it.

More questions I have. What's that damage in the parking? Could a hit on the parking alone cause 500 deaths? What about the building? Was it hit? Again, what caused over 500 deaths? Has that number been verified?

[Leo Gura]

This is good:

 

[Raze]

On 10/18/2023 at 8:56 AM, Leo Gura said:

If the West tries to impose a pro-Western, pro-Jewish puppet monarch, he will be overthrown by the locals, just like in Afghanistan. You can't just do these things from the outside. It has to come from within.

Again, there was a left wing secular Palestinian liberation movement, it was thwarted and radicals like hamas empowered by Israel’s government specifically to damage chances for a Palestinian state.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-11/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-needed-a-strong-hamas/0000018b-1e9f-d47b-a7fb-bfdfd8f30000

Even a politician in Israel who was pushing for a peaceful two state resolution was assassinated by Jewish extremists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzhak_Rabin

you can’t do everything in your power to sabotage peace and support extremists then complain the extremists are making you brutally occupy them.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Raze

[Raze]

 

[Scholar]

 

I think what Palestine desperately needs is a leader, a figure like Martin Luther King, to turn and direct the frustration of the people in a productive way, rather than have their anger be exploited and amplified for the sake of ideologues and their delusional ideas. If the palestinians don't take agency in that regard, the situation will not change, even if Israel will compromise and do what is right.

[Leo Gura]

That guy needs to change his name to Hussain Hussain-Hussain already.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Sir Oberon]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

This is good:

 

Look, here we are.  And what forces brought us to this?    Be awake, look.  I don't pray for anything other than the perseverance of my own soul.  And what does that take?  I love you all.    So stop it!

[Raze]

https://normanfinkelstein.substack.com/p/israel-would-never-target-medical
 

https://www.aaronmate.net/p/the-roots-of-israels-ethnic-cleansing

[Harikrishnan]

 

On 18/10/2023 at 5:55 PM, zazen said:

 

Nothing much of that is happening in India as guy thinks. His logic can be applied to India as well, when a Hindu govt came to power, Muslim friends thought they will act like Muslim rulers of past did. Nothing like of that happend yet. In a crowded country with different diversity of religious folks, its normal to have hate fights and killing, it was always like that in India, but never to any full collapse of system like in middle east.

[Sir Oberon]

19 minutes ago, Harikrishnan said:

 

Nothing much of that is happening in India as guy thinks. His logic can be applied to India as well, when a Hindu govt came to power, Muslim friends thought they will act like Muslim rulers of past did. Nothing like of that happend yet. In a crowded country with different diversity of religious folks, its normal to have hate fights and killing, it was always like that in India, but never to any full collapse of system like in middle east.

Fear and retrubution.   I don't see how anyone with a sane mind would want to escalate this war in Gaza.  Walk away, everyone.  Hamas, Israel, and all the others.  When will we have peace on earth?    I may be simple-minded, but evil is complicated and entwined in us all.   So the story continues.

[Maximilian]

On 10/7/2023 at 2:47 PM, Leo Gura said:

Their deep frustrations with Zionist settlement expansion and occupation.

Hamas has been self-governing since 2005.

There are issues with Israeli settlement in the West Bank, yes.

However, Gaza has been incapable of pulling their shit together.

Hamas was elected in 2006.

Since then, they have run Gaza like a 3rd world country, diverting humanitarian aid that is sent to them towards terror activities like building tunnels under civilian areas and digging up pipes to build rockets.

Another primary source of funding for Hamas is extreme taxation on the population, making it even harder for them to survive.

Radical Islamic Jihadism has a lot to do with these issues.

They indoctrinate their own children into terrorism.

Why do you think they have so many young men ready to become martyrs?

Palestinian children are shown anti-semitic cartoons on TV.

The only way this conflict will be resolved is if Hamas is wiped off the face of the Earth.

You can't have peace when your neighbors are terrorists.

I would highly recommend to everyone to check out this series "Whispered in Gaza" which showcase the brutality of Hamas:

 

[Bufo Alvarius]

Crazy. New footage shows, how coordinated the attack by Hamas was.

They really just had one goal: kill as many civilians as possible.

[Hello from Russia]

I guess many people don't really like cancel culture

[HMD]

 What about doing what the afghanis did after the US left? 

[Lila9]

7 hours ago, Scholar said:

 

I think what Palestine desperately needs is a leader, a figure like Martin Luther King, to turn and direct the frustration of the people in a productive way, rather than have their anger be exploited and amplified for the sake of ideologues and their delusional ideas. If the palestinians don't take agency in that regard, the situation will not change, even if Israel will compromise and do what is right.

All well said, it's refreshing to hear sane and humane voices in the Arab world.

Massacre of Israeli kids who celebrated Love and massacre of Israeli innocent families and civilians has nothing to do with freedom for Palestine.

Sad that people justify Hamas crimes and see them as legitimate leadership of Palestine. It's a shame. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Lila9

[Vrubel]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

This is good:

 

So how do you crush Hamas without invading? How do you even attempt to rescue hostages without invading? 

[Leo Gura]

1 minute ago, Vrubel said:

So how do you crush Hamas without invading? How do you even attempt to rescue hostages without invading? 

Hamas has said they will release all hostages if Israel agrees to stop all bombing.

[Vrubel]

13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Hamas has said they will release all hostages if Israel agrees to stop all bombing.

No one can seriously believe that, the hostages are their greatest assets. Hamas is also not exactly known for its principles of human decency and commitment to honesty. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Vrubel

[zazen]

@Maximilian  Both sides are being radicalised. Extremist strains of any religion or ideology divinely legitimise un-divine distortions of that religion or idea.

How is what is termed as an 'open air prison' supposed to get their shit together and develop when blockaded? 

Al Jazeera : ''The siege has led to shortages of basic items such as food and fuel. It has also stymied Gaza’s potential for long-term economic development. Chronic problems, such as access to education, healthcare and clean water, have become more pronounced.''

Those aware of spiral dynamics like us on this forum can easily fall into pigeon holing a entire population to certain developmental stages simply due to their leadership, and conflate development of different domains ie if their not developed politically (ideally democratic) that means they aren't developed morally (thus savages) and then we like to view ourselves in the West as morally superior. The ego can use integral philosophy and spiral dynamics to discriminate in self aggrandisement instead of discern the nuances of it. 

If Hamas are terrorists then they would surely terrorise their own population into submission thus rendering election invalid - so they don't represent their population in the truest sense. By that logic, democracy represents the people more closely in which case the USA doing its regime change around the world and dropping atomic bombs in Hiroshima is representative of its population being morally corrupt and at a lower stage of development than what is advertised.

If a person with stage orange/green psychology was put under condition such as the Palestinians you don't think they could act out the same? The conditions can supplant and corrupt the state of conscience of that person, but we view them as 'less developed' in consciousness. 

In an earlier post Leo mentioned what makes them (Hamas) savage and barbaric is not what they do or how many they kill (quantity) but how they kill (quality).

Beasts eat, man dines - beasts copulate, man makes love , same act but imbued with a conscience quality separates man from animal. These acts don't however fall under the moral sphere as heavily as killing do because they don't violate the do no harm principle. Killing is killing, whether done barbarically or in a sophisticated manner as drone attacks.

The aesthetic difference doesn't make the act more or less moral, or the people committing it more or less 'developed.'

We can be developed or not in different domains - the West's culture seems to be degenerate to the rest of the world and vulgar (Cardi B, promiscuity etc)  - should that be equated with the Wests level of moral development also? Because a lot of the world view it as such and make the same mistake of equating the two - the same way we in the West equate the peoples of a region with their despotic leaders - who in fact are coup d'etat'ed into power and kept their by the West to serve industrial interests.

Edited October 20, 2023 by zazen