New War In Israel / Gaza

[BassamMo]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Because they are more honest and developed than Hamas.

You have to be unbiased to see these degrees of difference.

This does not mean trusting Israel like a naive fool. You must take into account that Israel has a survival agenda and bias. This is so obvious it hardly needs to be said.

More developed? For sure. More honest than them? Well I'd apply skepticism to that, I personally view both of them equal in that regard...

We agree on the last part.

[Leo Gura]

@BassamMo More developed means less corrupt, which means more honest.

Hamas dares to even deny they killed civilians.

There is a relationship between development level and honesty/integirty. Which is why all the least developed countries are the most corrupt and barbaric. Which is why US media is more trustworthy than Chinese or Russian media. This does not mean US media has no bias. It's just less biased than the alternatives.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Leo Gura

[BassamMo]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

@BassamMo More developed means less corrupt, which means more honest.

Hamas dares to even deny they killed civilians.

Not necessarily imo.

Hamas did kill civilans 100% and IDF "the more developed" army is casually killing civilans everyday as well and it's accepted and considered self defense. And when they get caught doing something dodgy such as killing the prominent journalist Shireen Abu Aqla or bombing a hospital killing +500 people in one strike, they claim it's done by the Palestinians not them cause they care about the human life, God forbid they kill innocent people...

[Karmadhi]

@Leo Gura You are conviently ignoring the fact that Izraeli officials tweeted about successfuly bombing a hospital and killing “terrorists in there” and then deleting the tweet once footage started coming out and the world got angry. 
This is more telling than any “investigation” they may do about responsibility of the attack. 
They literally admited it…

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

@Leo Gura You are conviently ignoring the fact that Izraeli officials tweeted about successfuly bombing a hospital and killing “terrorists in there” and then deleting the tweet once footage started coming out and the world got angry. 
This is more telling than any “investigation” they may do.

A single tweet is not very good evidence. That could have been a different hospital and they didn't want confusion over this issue.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Karmadhi]

@Leo Gura So Israeli is bombing many hospitals by your logic…

Is it not hard to believe they realized they messed up once they saw the extent of the damage done and the international outrage and decided to change the narrative. Most countries would do it

Usa lied about invading a whole country, this is not new stuff.

Also that tweet came from Benjamin s spokeperson, not just any Israeli

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Karmadhi

[PurpleTree]

 

[Danioover9000]

@PurpleTree

26 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Horrible speech

netanyahu always with his 1’300 is the equivalent of 50‘000 in the u.s.

this our 9/11, these are the new nazis, it‘s good vs bad

bro shut up is this kindergarten?

   I could tell from body language analysis that Netanyahu, despite trying to sound confident, had moments of lip compression(Which is sign of stress and withholding words, maybe lying) and clasping of hands around his genital region, may appear as a confident posture, but just like with Adolf Hitler, him covering his region is a sign of insecurity. As for Joe Bidden, has his moments of lip retraction and lip compressions, lots of 'um's and 'ah's in his verbals, again due to his cognitive difficulties I can't get a more accurate read from his tonality and words, but to claim that HAMAs makes ISIS more rational is a bit of a stretch.

[AerisVahnEphelia]

 

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

A single tweet is not very good evidence. That could have been a different hospital and they didn't want confusion over this issue.

 "sorry we claimed to have bombed an hospital, but we don't want it to be confused with the second one we also just bombed"

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by AerisVahnEphelia

[Danioover9000]

@AerisVahnEphelia

Just now, AerisVahnEphelia said:

 

 "sorry we claimed to have bombed an hospital, but we don't want it to be confused with the second one we also just bombed"

 

?

[Leo Gura]

15 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

So Israeli is bombing many hospitals by your logic…

Israel said they would bomb any place that has Hamas fighters or rockets.

And as in all wars, there will be mistakes in targetting. And even war crimes by some rogue elements.

This is not an excuse, this is the reality of the situation.

If you think about it, a modern military does not have good reason to bomb hospitals full of civilians. Israel does not want that kind of bad PR. If you are Israel you want to reduce backlash from international community just for selfish reasons.

If Israel wanted to bomb hospitals simply out of spite, they easily could. If you think they are doing that, you're not thinking very well. That's not how the Israeli army is run. That is not a serious analysis of the situation.

Some of you guys have very simplistic, conspiratorial ways of thinking about these things. The world is much more complicated than your kindergarten conspiracy theories.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Leo Gura

[BassamMo]

Before opening this topic for the first time I thought I'd find unbiased look at the situation by most people here but honestly it's disappointing to find many of people here adopt the media narrative as well, crazy cause it's against the teachings of Leo

[PurpleTree]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Israel said they would bomb any place that has Hamas fighters.

And as in all wars, there will be mistakes in targetting.

This is not an excuse, this is the reality of the situation.

If you think about it, a modern military does not have good reason to bomb hospitals full of civilians. Israel does not want that kind of bad PR. If you are Israel you want to reduce backlash from international community just for selfish reasons.

There is no worse pr than bombing a hospital and killing hundreds of civilans many women and children

 

….aside from killing lots of babies and raping and killing women

[Starlight321]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I'm not even sure how relevant that is. Because in the end a radical minority could capture a weak Palestinian state and use it as a genocidal platform.

Even if Palestine gets some form of democratic self-rule, it's gonna be a weak democracy at best. Look at the US. We are barely keeping our democracy intact today. How easily could Palestinian democracy get hijacked by Islamists? Very easily with the help of Iran. This is a legit concern for Netanyahu.

You are asking Israelis to trust with their lives that that won't happen. Obviously that's not a gamble they wanna take. Especially after the latest Hamas attack.

@Leo Gurayeah, a perfect example is syria and egypt. In syria outside funded islamists took over the revolution pretty quickly when the violence exploded. In egypt the muslim brotherhood with mursi appointing radicals in position of power. 

And by the way. There is an article from amnesty with evidence that ukrainian forces used (and probably still uses) civialian infrastructure like hospitals, schools and high rise buildings as bases, wappon depots, assembly spots, and rocket launching sides. 

The thing is, if the ukrainians did this and the russians, then why shouldn't desperate suicidal hamas fighters do that too? 

Ps: I don't deny that bombing of civilian infrastructure for other reasons such as methode to demoralize the population or just overreacting doesn't occur by isreali military

Here is the link:

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/08/ukraine-ukrainian-fighting-tactics-endanger-civilians/

Edited October 18, 2023 by Starlight321

[PurpleTree]

2 minutes ago, BassamMo said:

Before opening this topic for the first time I thought I'd find unbiased look at the situation by most people here but honestly it's disappointing to find many of people here adopt the media narrative as well, crazy cause it's against the teachings of Leo

I think it’s good to have all sides of the story and viewpoints and not be in a bubble in this thread 

[Karmadhi]

13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Some of you guys have very simplistic, conspiratorial ways of thinking about these things

You seem to be more critical of Russia's war crimes than Israel which is an issue. Both governments are toxic Blue overly nationalistic. Is it hard to believe a nationalistic blue government is capable to commit war crimes without much moral qualms? It has been happening for centuries. Nothing new here.

However, Russia does not get away with it and Israel does. This unequal treatment is what causes all the outrage. And similar acts to this also have been happening in the past in that region. Google the conflict there in 2014, 5 Israel civilians dead to over 2000 palestininas, there were no savage Hamas killing civilians in mass back then.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Karmadhi

[PurpleTree]

3 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

You seem to be more critical of Russia's war crimes than Israel which is an issue. Both governments are toxic Blue overly nationalistic. Is it hard to believe a nationalistic blue government is capable to commit war crimes without much moral qualms? It has been happening for centuries. Nothing new here.

However, Russia does not get away with it and Israel does. This unequal treatment is what causes all the outrage. And similar acts to this also have been happening in the past in that region. Google the conflict there in 2014, 5 Israel civilians dead to over 2000 palestininas, there were no savage Hamas killing civilians in mass back then.

Well israel was attacked and is only a country of 10million while russia wasn‘t attacked and is a country of 140million

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Russia did so in Ukraine, same argument there. Was that also a mistake?

Russia is a backwards authoritarian state. Deeply corrupt. Do not compare it to Israel. Israel is a liberal democratic state with a modern Western military.

The Russian military is well-known for deliberately brutal campaigns and targetting civilian buildings. The Russian military is also using tons of old unguided artillery shells, not modern guided missiles from F-35s.

Russia is also fighting a war of invasion and annexation of land against 100,000 well train troops. Totally different scenario than in Gaza. Putin's goal in Ukraine is to demoralize the local population into submission. To grind them down. Israel is not doing that.

Again, your analysis of the situation is not serious.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Karmadhi]

6 minutes ago, Nabd said:

I'm surprised that Leo is Russian yet he can't see through the bullshit of politicians

I think the difference is that Leo views Israel government as more morally developed than some of us here do. Personally i would put them on the level of Putin's Russia.

[Karmadhi]

@Leo Gura

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Israel is a liberal democrate state with a modern Western military.

It is also toxic Blue and overly nationalistic with a toxic Zionist Ideology. Being a liberal democracy is irrelevant when your entire population is brainwashed. I know people that visited there and told me the amount of brainwashing they put kids from early school is insane. A brainwashed population will elect brainwash leaders that dehumanize their "enemies" and have no moral qualms about killing them.

It is not rocket science.

Most of Israeli s population was born after Israel was founded and have been brainwashed all their life to believe they are right.

Also the current government being Zionist does not help.

Zionism is quite toxic if you have read about it. 

You can find plenty of intellectually honest Israelis deeply critizining their governments and calling out their propaganda bullshit and inhumane treatment of palestininas 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Karmadhi