New War In Israel / Gaza

[StarStruck]

The only way to solve this conflict is if both countries go to therapy on a massive scale which won’t happen. They are just acting out their collective traumas. Jews lived in European terror for centuries only to move to the Middle East to create the same circumstance where they have to live in fear. 

Edited October 17, 2023 by StarStruck

[Inliytened1]

1 hour ago, zazen said:

This 100%

Even to the North, Hamas fired two rockets into a empty farm area not to kill but more as a sign of solidarity to the Palestinian side that we are with you, and as a cautionary warning to Israel to not be too heavy handed - but they overreacted and started going for it as well as attacking Syrian airports.

 

@Nivsch  Israel don't have strategy, they are flustered and knee jerk reacting to everything at the moment which is suicidal. Those drunk on power aren't rational and need to save face and position - Bibi built his identiy off being the strong man and saviour of Israel and will look to maintain that to distract from domestic issues. If Israel provokes Hamas from the South, Hezbollah from the North, Syria from the side and Palestinians from within thats a 4 front war they will lose without the US and allies getting involved which will then involve Iran, Russia and Turkey into a much bigger issue.

I don't think it will come to that but we will see.  I think Israeli ground troops will take Gaza within a reasonable amount of time.  I don't think it will be pretty by any means but I do think it will not be a long - drawn out conflict once Gaza is taken.

[PurpleTree]

Just now, StarStruck said:

The only way to solve this conflict is if both countries go to therapy on a massive scale which won’t happen. They are just acting out their collective traumas. 

And it just goes on

germany was traumatised in ww1, then hitler, holocaust, jews were traumatised, then palestine is traumatised and so on

[StarStruck]

Just now, PurpleTree said:

And it just goes on

germany was traumatised in ww1, then hitler, holocaust, jews were traumatised, then palestine is traumatised and so on

I’m reading some of the comments here and it is insane. ?

[PurpleTree]

Allegedly peyote helped some native american tribes with their trauma. Maybe we should just plant millions of peyote in the israeli/palestinian desert and force them to gobble them up

[StarStruck]

1 minute ago, PurpleTree said:

Allegedly peyote helped some native american tribes with their trauma. Maybe we should just plant millions of peyote in the israeli/palestinian desert and force them to gobble them up

just put LSD in the water supply

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

@Breakingthewall Do you have a better alternative to how to eliminate hamas?

I am asking seriously. Not to argue.

The question is whether that alternative is going to eliminate Hamas. another alternative is selective elimination, very difficult, but at least it doesn't destroy a city without any results.  

There are 2.5 million people. What are you going to do with them? How do you know who is from Hamas? who is going to tell you? 

I know that Israel must do something, it cannot remain passive, but I don't know what would be best.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[AerisVahnEphelia]

2 minutes ago, StarStruck said:

just put LSD in the water supply

It doesn't work well if your mind is full of trauma & resistances. This is usually what causes " bad trip ".

[An young being]

2 hours ago, StarStruck said:

Jews have very low birth rate if there would be a two state solution, the Jews would be outbreed without no time. And Israel would become another Arab state. Of course right wing doesn't want peace because that kind of peace would give their enemy time to breed and create advantagous situation for their enemy.

So reproduction is an effective weapon in ideology wars.!?

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

. Hamas' objectives are met, Israel's are not. The world will forget the killings in the kibbutzs in comparison with the disaster in Gaza

Even the whole world don't have to remember that. Only the future terrorists who are going to be radicalised for the leaders' benefits.

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

There are still limits to their ruthlessness. One would hope.

They will be forced to have the limits.

 

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

How are Palestinians ever going to recover their homes? 

Back to stone age.

 

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

I don't think Israel knows what it is doing, they are improvising in a situation of trauma that is softening as the days go by. They saw the need for an immediate and strong reaction, but as time goes by, minds become balanced and they will see that the destruction of Gaza is useless and works against them. We will probably see a cessation of bombing soon. It would be the most reasonable thing since it will only bring them problems without any benefit, and the scale of revenge is already more or less balanced.

Hope so. Unless Hamas and Iran wants the bloodshed to continue.

[An young being]

33 minutes ago, Sucuk Ekmek said:

31 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

And it just goes on

germany was traumatised in ww1, then hitler, holocaust, jews were traumatised, then palestine is traumatised and so on

 

I believe Germany is mostly fine now.

[hundreth]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

The only thing they could really do is bomb less from the air.

The million dollar question is, How effectively can they really eliminate Hamas? Will a ground invasion even do the trick? Or will Hamas reform as soon as Israel pulls out? In which case, the situation becomes unsolvable.

The problem with Hamas, unlike say, Nazi Germany or Japan, is that Hamas will not do an unconditional surrender because they are suicidal.

A real problem is that the more surgical Israel is, the more Israeli casualties there will be. Given the significant loss of life in the country as of late, the relative experience of 30 9/11s... they are obviously hesitant.

I don't think anyone expects this to eliminate Hamas, only significantly cripple them.

[PurpleTree]

wasn‘t one of sun tzu rules to destroy your enemy completely or at some point the revenge will be huge. Or was it 48 laws of power? One of those hogwashes

[zazen]

The quagmire is that as a group, the Jews, who have endured the trauma of the Holocaust, are resettled in the land of another group, the Palestinians, displacing them in a Nakba, causing their own trauma. This amalgamation of suffering involves a third group, the British, who themselves are traumatised by World War and the decline of their empire
 

Then you underpin that trauma with the religion of one group (Islam) that has negative verses of the other group in their holy text - with the other groups religion (Judaism) which claims them to be the chosen people, and both groups having terms to identify those outside themselves (kufar and goyim) which perpetuates a tribalistic in-out group dynamic.

 

What a mess.

 

When two parties are traumatised, any leaders within them who want to transcend that suffering and come to peace with it in order to come to peace with those that caused it - will be taken down by those that fail to transcend that suffering and instead make an identity out of it in the form of victimhood.

 

The peace makers rob the identity of those who haven’t come to peace with their suffering and who instead relish in it in the form of entitlement and grandiosity. They misrepresent the peace maker as one who invalidates their suffering which is their identity and meaning for existence.

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by zazen

[hundreth]

This whole trauma angle is corny. This is just human nature.

Things happen, many times horrific. The entire planet's geographical lines are predicated on colonialism and war. After centuries of war and displacement, be it the Israeli kingdom, the romans, the ottomans, the British, etc... now we want to choose 1947 as our arbitrary year where history should reverse itself and a nation state should be undone.

We don't hold any other nation on the planet to such a wild standard.

War happened. The palestinians lost their land, just as the Jews before them had multiple times. My family is Iraqi Jewish, ancestrally there for hundreds of years. The entire Jewish population of Iraq was expelled, our land and properties violently stolen. The same thing occurred in almost every Arab nation in the 20th century. Is my family ever going to get their home back? NO. We have to move on and look forward.

The West likes to dangle this resistance carrot in front of the Palestinians as if they'll ever fully take their lands back. This is immoral. It isn't going to happen. They like to demonize Israel for doing everything their nations have done for millenia. 

The path to peace is to look forward, not backwards. Sit down at the negotiation table, and find the best deal for the Palestinian people which improves their livelihoods. 

 

[PurpleTree]

26 minutes ago, hundreth said:

This whole trauma angle is corny. This is just human nature.

 

Well if it’s you or gabor mate, i think i‘m going with gabor mate.

[bambi]

27 minutes ago, hundreth said:

This whole trauma angle is corny. This is just human nature.

Things happen, many times horrific. The entire planet's geographical lines are predicated on colonialism and war. After centuries of war and displacement, be it the Israeli kingdom, the romans, the ottomans, the British, etc... now we want to choose 1947 as our arbitrary year where history should reverse itself and a nation state should be undone.

We don't hold any other nation on the planet to such a wild standard.

War happened. The palestinians lost their land, just as the Jews before them had multiple times. My family is Iraqi Jewish, ancestrally there for hundreds of years. The entire Jewish population of Iraq was expelled, our land and properties violently stolen. The same thing occurred in almost every Arab nation in the 20th century. Is my family ever going to get their home back? NO. We have to move on and look forward.

The West likes to dangle this resistance carrot in front of the Palestinians as if they'll ever fully take their lands back. This is immoral. It isn't going to happen. They like to demonize Israel for doing everything their nations have done for millenia. 

The path to peace is to look forward, not backwards. Sit down at the negotiation table, and find the best deal for the Palestinian people which improves their livelihoods. 

 

ISnt the best deal to integrate all palestinians into Israel as one nation with equal rights? why wouldnt Israel do this is she is so kind

[hundreth]

Just now, PurpleTree said:

Well if it’s you or gabor mate, i think i‘m going with gabor mate.

When you're a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

[PurpleTree]

1 minute ago, hundreth said:

When you're a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

Well i‘m seeing in my self what trauma does so i‘m mostly buying it. There is no absolute truth here though

[StarStruck]

2 hours ago, AerisVahnEphelia said:

It doesn't work well if your mind is full of trauma & resistances. This is usually what causes " bad trip ".

 No such thing as a bad trip

[hundreth]

Just now, bambi said:

ISnt the best deal to integrate all palestinians into Israel as one nation with equal rights? why wouldnt Israel do this is she is so kind

I never claimed Israel is so kind. The one state solution is an unrealistic utopian concept which will never happen. The fact is that Israel was formed as a colonial Jewish state with the intention of being a safe haven for Jews after centuries of persecution in both Europe and the Arab-Muslim world. Whether you agree with the premise or not, the nation of Israel isn't going to self destruct by forming a one state solution. 

To make matters worse, it would be almost impossible to integrate both people's effectively in the short term. The Palestinians do not want a one state solution either. Both sides hate each other.