New War In Israel / Gaza

[zazen]

18 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Yeah yeah.   I know it's not evident of an advanced society.   But terrorist organizations have to be dealt with and we are not near a society where they don't exist. 

Terrorist organisations have to be dealt with yes, but they also must not be created in the first place. Who and what conditions created them? 

How could Israel handle Hamas? To have not created it in the first place and treated Palestinians poorly only to further radicalising them into getting vengeance for having killed their parents brother and sisters.

 

Thats the past so how about now? Well for a start at least not transgressing international law by cutting off essentials such as food, water and electricity that sustains millions of people half of which are children and further - to block aid coming in to those people.

 

US gave Israel precision target weapons to target Hamas not destroy Gaza and kill innocents. Of course, there will be some casualties but this is to minimise that. US also has told Isreal to allow aid. Both have been defied and denied by Israel who seem to be haphazardly and ethnocentrically lashing out because their cause is dying out. Biden now has to visit due to this and we'll see what comes from it.

 

Isreals cause is dying in the eyes of the world and isolating it in the process as the West is isolates itself from the Global South due to their crusade of regime change the past decades. World wide protests and condemnation abound apart from the elites of the West who have a vested interest in perpetual war and the continued threat of Isreals extinction by the surrounding region as a pretext to perpetuate the military industrial complex.

Edited October 17, 2023 by zazen

[Inliytened1]

10 minutes ago, zazen said:

Terrorist organisations have to be dealt with yes, but they also must not be created in the first place. Who and what conditions created them? 

How could Israel handle Hamas? To have not created it in the first place

No nation should or could take such credit.   

 

11 minutes ago, zazen said:

Terrorist organisations have to be dealt with yes, but they also must not be created in the first place. Who and what conditions created them? 

How could Israel handle Hamas? To have not created it in the first place 

Israel has power but not this much.  An organization such as Hamas grows limbs on its own and becomes fully figured on its own.  Do not put this on Israel.   

 

13 minutes ago, zazen said:

.   World wide protests and condemntion apart from the elites of the West who have a vested interest in perpetual war and the continued threat of Isreals extinction by the surrounding region as a pretext to perpetuate the military industrial complex.

Seems like a run on sentence.   I don't understand , but maybe it's me.

[Inliytened1]

4 minutes ago, nuwu said:

U-uh, you possess such ability? I actually feel pressured into respectful conduct. *shaking*

He doesn't possess God like abilities like I do.  He's just a pawn.

[bambi]

20 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

No nation should or could take such credit.   

 

Israel has power but not this much.  An organization such as Hamas grows limbs on its own and becomes fully figured on its own.  Do not put this on Israel.   

 

Seems like a run on sentence.   I don't understand , but maybe it's me.

What arent you understanding;

 

Israel was created by land that didnt belong to them or the UK

Surrounding nations invaded, in this invasion Israel pushed back and further increeased its borders

In this expansion it then occupied places whose people where treated as 3rd class citizens

In all the years nothing has changed the land wasn't given back, treatment hasnt improved, in fact only the borders of grown

In the places that are occupied and mis-treated, terroist groups have formed as an only voice or way of reacting

 

What about the above is complex to you? Do you see how in all of this to simply focus on the terrorist Hamas attacks would be stupid? 

Its literally down to Israel, either they will give the land back, free palestine, unite palestine into one nation with Israel with equal rights, or the violence will continue. How is that not obvious?

[Inliytened1]

3 minutes ago, bambi said:

What arent you understanding;

 

Israel was created by land that didnt belong to them or the UK

Surrounding nations invaded, in this invasion Israel pushed back and further increeased its borders

In this expansion it then occupied places whose people where treated as 3rd class citizens

In all the years nothing has changed the land wasn't given back, treatment hasnt improved, in fact only the borders of grown

In the places that are occupied and mis-treated, terroist groups have formed as an only voice or way of reacting

 

What about the above is complex to you? Do you see how in all of this to simply focus on the terrorist Hamas attacks would be stupid? 

Its literally down to Israel, either they will give the land back, free palestine, unite palestine into one nation with Israel with equal rights, or the violence will continue. How is that not obvious?

What land do you believe is Palestines?

[bambi]

5 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

What land do you believe is Palestines?

The piece of land called Palestine lol, you didnt address anything above...

[bambi]

12 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

What land do you believe is Palestines?

The history isn't hard to trade back is it? Just start with the original creation of Israel and British Mandatory Palestine.

 

[Inliytened1]

1 minute ago, bambi said:

The history isn't hard to trade back is it? Just start with the original creation of Israel and British Mandatory Palestine.

 

Indeed not..I believe the precise year was 1947.  It was established as Israel.  So then what's the fuss?  The fuss is because everyone around them wanted to take it.  

[Inliytened1]

@bambi you seem to want to justify what Hamas is doing based on you think it was the Jew's land just because Roosevelt gave it to them "technically".  But it was fhe Jew's land before then.   The Palestinians  didn't have any rights to it.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Inliytened1

[bambi]

3 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

@bambi you seem to want to justify what Hamas is doing based on you think it was the Jew's land just because Roosevelt gave it to them "technically".  But it was fhe Jew's land before then.   The Palestinians  didn't have any rights to it.

30 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

What land do you believe is Palestines?

Im not justifying anything. ITs just nonsense to look at what Hamas is doing in isolation, it would be utter stupidity

 

Israel have occupied several regions after they were attacked. This occupation isn't legal or just, and the treatment within these places breaks human rights, in response to this we see groups like Hamas form. Its just a vicious cycle fueled by fundementalist idealogy from some of the most fucked up humans ever created.

All these zionists jews and all these fundementalist muslims are all fucked up, truly utterly the devils of humanity, and they play this merry go round. 

Ultimately The Islamic states should recognize the orignal borders, Israel should give back the settlements, everyone apolgoixe and get on with life,

 

OR

 

Israel combines palestine into a single state with equal rights

 

Everything else is just utter utter nonsense and will go round and round

[zazen]

1 hour ago, Inliytened1 said:

No nation should or could take such credit.   

 

Israel has power but not this much.  An organization such as Hamas grows limbs on its own and becomes fully figured on its own.  Do not put this on Israel.   

 

Seems like a run on sentence.   I don't understand , but maybe it's me.

@bambi Excellent points. 

@Inliytened1

- Regarding your statement of Hamas growing on its own:

''Segev later told a New York Times reporter that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who himself referred to Hamas as “a creature of Israel.”

First, the Israelis helped build up a militant strain of Palestinian political Islam, in the form of Hamas and its Muslim Brotherhood precursors; then, the Israelis switched tack and tried to bomb, besiege, and blockade it out of existence.''

 

- You asked earlier how Israel could deal with Hamas in more humane way?

My response to which you didn't respond was  ''For a start at least not transgressing international law by cutting off essentials such as food, water and electricity that sustains millions of people half of which are children and further - to block aid coming in to those people.

US gave Israel precision target weapons to target Hamas not destroy Gaza and kill innocents. Of course, there will be some casualties but this is to minimise that. US also has told Israel to allow aid. Both have been defied and denied by Israel who seem to be haphazardly and ethnocentrically lashing out because their cause is dying out. Biden now has to visit due to this and we'll see what comes from it.''

 

- Do past historical experiences trump present day legal laws? A case can be made in extreme events such as the Holocaust. Though its not legally lawful to establish refuge for the Jews in the form of a state over existing lands it would be the right thing to do. But the right to exist as a state is made wrong by the underpinning of an ideology such as Zionism that wishes to expel that lands original inhabitants and if not expel them, mistreat, humiliate and dehumanise them.

 

This is why Zionism denies that people even existed there (in the land of Palestine) in the first place, because if people were there they know their justification would fail and they would struggle in the moral domain. 

 

Shouldn't the perpetrators who caused extreme suffering to the Jews be the ones to give up land of their own for them to seek refuge in once and for all? Why should people of other lands suffer for the sins caused by another. Who gave them that right and authority?

 

 

[Breakingthewall]

It seems incredible to me that being right-wing makes you see Israeli colonialism as legitimate. Isn't there a single right-wing person in the world who sees the abuse that the systematic occupation of another nation's lands entails? I mean the settlements in West bank

It seems that the thing is: I am right-wing, to be right-wing is to be pro-Israel, so I am pro-Israel. Since I am pro Israeli, everything Israel does is good. The wonderful thing is that they can dress themselves, have a job, drive. You would say that they are mentally retarded, but no...they are just completely dishonest. Everything mine is good, everything yours is bad. disgusting

Edited October 17, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

30 minutes ago, bambi said:

Ultimately The Islamic states should recognize the orignal borders, Israel should give back the settlements, everyone apolgoixe and get on with life,

Exactly ,It's as simple as that. But if an Israeli political party has that in its program, what electoral results do you think it will have? much worse than if it is extreme right with members who look to the Bible to establish future borders. and US supports this unconditionally. So it's normal that there is war.

[AerisVahnEphelia]

@Inliytened1 loyalty is imaginary when the shit hit the fans in my experience.

you have no heritage, just a strong belief to have one.

In my regard : you'll hurt yourself by holding fiction as truthful and your ego will bite you for it, there is only pain on the path of self-identification.

Of course you're up to enjoy imagining whatever, that's not really up to me to tell you what fiction one shall enjoy.

I just hope for you that your favorite fiction is strong enough to hold the Truth.

[Inliytened1]

21 minutes ago, zazen said:

@bambi Excellent points. 

@Inliytened1

- Regarding your statement of Hamas growing on its own:

''Segev later told a New York Times reporter that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who himself referred to Hamas as “a creature of Israel.”

First, the Israelis helped build up a militant strain of Palestinian political Islam, in the form of Hamas and its Muslim Brotherhood precursors; then, the Israelis switched tack and tried to bomb, besiege, and blockade it out of existence.''

 

- You asked earlier how Israel could deal with Hamas in more humane way?

My response to which you didn't respond was  ''For a start at least not transgressing international law by cutting off essentials such as food, water and electricity that sustains millions of people half of which are children and further - to block aid coming in to those people.

US gave Israel precision target weapons to target Hamas not destroy Gaza and kill innocents. Of course, there will be some casualties but this is to minimise that. US also has told Israel to allow aid. Both have been defied and denied by Israel who seem to be haphazardly and ethnocentrically lashing out because their cause is dying out. Biden now has to visit due to this and we'll see what comes from it.''

 

- Do past historical experiences trump present day legal laws? A case can be made in extreme events such as the Holocaust. Though its not legally lawful to establish refuge for the Jews in the form of a state over existing lands it would be the right thing to do. But the right to exist as a state is made wrong by the underpinning of an ideology such as Zionism that wishes to expel that lands original inhabitants and if not expel them, mistreat, humiliate and dehumanise them.

 

This is why Zionism denies that people even existed there (in the land of Palestine) in the first place, because if people were there they know their justification would fail and they would struggle in the moral domain. 

 

Shouldn't the perpetrators who caused extreme suffering to the Jews be the ones to give up land of their own for them to seek refuge in once and for all? Why should people of other lands suffer for the sins caused by another. Who gave them that right and authority?

 

 

@bambi @zazen you guys can provide all the reason in the world for why Hamas formed but you cannot justify their actions-  and since you cannot - you cannot in good conscience then condemn Israel's response.   If you want to say war is wrong that might be a more acceptable response. 

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Inliytened1

[zazen]

1 minute ago, AerisVahnEphelia said:

@Inliytened1 loyalty is imaginary when the shit hit the fans in my experience.

you have no heritage, just a strong belief to have one.

In my regard : you'll hurt yourself by holding fiction as truthful and your ego will bite you for it, there is only pain on the path of self-identification.

Of course you're up to enjoy imagining whatever, that's not really up to me to tell you what fiction one shall enjoy.

I just hope for you that your favorite fiction is strong enough to hold the Truth.

Humans aren't rational creatures as much as we are rationalising ones. We die for fiction and dreams more than truth, we take them as truth when they are only symbols of it.

This is why Leo says we need to go meta, beyond ego and identification. Most on this forum may be able to, and thats a forum inclined to self development, but the world to go meta? One can only hope.

[Inliytened1]

3 minutes ago, AerisVahnEphelia said:

@Inliytened1 loyalty is imaginary when the shit hit the fans in my experience.

you have no heritage, just a strong belief to have one.

In my regard : you'll hurt yourself by holding fiction as truthful and your ego will bite you for it, there is only pain on the path of self-identification.

Of course you're up to enjoy imagining whatever, that's not really up to me to tell you what fiction one shall enjoy.

I just hope for you that your favorite fiction is strong enough to hold the Truth.

I love you.   Don't go anywhere.   We can get you to Absolute Truth.   I can show you how.  You found this place.   So don't lose it.   I'll get your contact info it you really wanna wake up from this dream I can help you do it - better than Leo.

[bambi]

1 minute ago, Inliytened1 said:

@bambi @zazen you guys can provide all the reason in the world for why Hamas formed but you cannot justify their actions-  and since you cannot - you cannot in good conscience then condemn Israel's response.   If you want to say war is wrong that might be a more acceptable response. 

 

Honestly, I have no idea what you are talking about. Your response addresses absolutely nothing that was written.

 

[Breakingthewall]

2 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

you cannot in good conscience then condemn Israel's response.   

You can condemn the actions of Hamas and at the same time condemn the fact of cutting off electricity, water and medicine in a big city. If Israel were not being watched, we would see what treatment the "human animals" would receive.

[Inliytened1]

6 minutes ago, bambi said:

Honestly, I have no idea what you are talking about. Your response addresses absolutely nothing that was written.

 

@zazen is condemning Israel's response as barbaric.   And im telling you it is a valid response to what has transpired.   No one can change the past or where we are today.  And the bottom line is Israel was attacked without warning and hundreds were killed.   Their response was warranted.  

Edited October 17, 2023 by Inliytened1