New War In Israel / Gaza

[Scholar]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

You're not gonna find a better political forum on the web. You guys don't appreicate what we got here and how toxic things are out there.

We need an ascension system where all the reasonable people get a special secret section in the forum so they can discuss things without the noise.

[Sucuk Ekmek]

24 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

 

I am hearing theories that it is done on purpose by the West in order to remove sympathy from palestine.

 

You can't say this is not the case, which is sad.

[PurpleTree]

4 minutes ago, Scholar said:

We need an ascension system where all the reasonable people get a special secret section in the forum so they can discuss things without the noise.

Like a caste system?

[Scholar]

1 minute ago, PurpleTree said:

Like a caste system?

Yes, apartheid for actualized.org/forum.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Scholar

[Inliytened1]

8 minutes ago, Scholar said:

We need an ascension system where all the reasonable people get a special secret section in the forum so they can discuss things without the noise.

No.  You are just being pompous at the moment.   If you want to start a thread start one.   And you can ask that those you deem ignorant stay out of the thread.

[bambi]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You're not gonna find a better political forum on the web. You guys don't appreicate what we got here and how toxic things are out there.

IF you had your way, metahpysically, and it could play out anyway you wished in an instant, how would you write the script ? This is a genuine question

[bambi]

How else can it be other then Israel-Palestine unite into one nation, and have equal rights for all civilians, and learn to forigve each other

[Vrubel]

55 minutes ago, bambi said:

Why not destory Israel instead? 

Why not destroy your country?

[Breakingthewall]

42 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Israel has no choice but to exert massive force on its opponents.  It has been persecuted for so long that eventually if this is not done it will never be taken seriously.   Israel is tired of it at this point, and I don't blame them

Israel is expanding every day into the territory of another nation, which it does not recognize, with the excuse that in the Bible its borders were those. It destroys Palestinian houses and villages and settles settlers coming from abroad. do you think this is correct? Why?

[bambi]

1 minute ago, Vrubel said:

Why not destroy your country?

I wouldnt destroy any, id unite them all

[Inliytened1]

@Breakingthewall israel was sneak attacked...there is a bit of a difference.  It is not expanding it is destroying the threat to its own existence.   Is destroying another's existence morally right?  Never.  But this goes back to the question of spiral dynamics.   Israel has two choices here.   It can just cease to exist at all - which perhaps is the more biblical position - or it can become the dog trying to eat the dog - to preserve its survival.   They chose not to be the martyr.   And that's fine.  It doesn't make them any less wise or any less biblical.  It just means they want to survive.  And you can't blame them for that.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Inliytened1

[Scholar]

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-forensic-teams-describe-signs-torture-abuse-2023-10-15/
 

Quote

 

Around 90% of the military dead have been identified and teams are half way through identifying civilians, said Rabbi Israel Weiss, former army chief rabbi, one of the officials overseeing the identification of the dead. He said many bodies showed signs of torture as well as rape.

"We've seen dismembered bodies with their arms and feet chopped off, people that were beheaded, a child that was beheaded," a reserve warrant officer identified only by her first name of Avigayil told reporters.

She said multiple cases of rape were found by forensic examination of the bodies, which have been stored in refrigerated containers.

"We do the identification with all the means that we have," said a military dentist, identified as Captain Maayan. "We see them in severe stages of abuse. We see gunshots and we see signs that are purely torture."

The military personnel overseeing the identification process didn't present any forensic evidence in the form of pictures or medical records.

 

 

https://news.sky.com/story/israel-gaza-war-recovered-bodies-show-bloodthirsty-gunmen-took-time-over-torture-and-that-hamas-has-changed-12985212#:~:text=
 

Quote

 

In the various kibbutzim they attacked nearby, their behaviour descended to a whole new level of depravity.

They didn't just kill - they took their time. They bound families, tortured them, and eventually murdered them.

This is something fundamentally different to the behaviours of Hamas we have seen in the past.

I've met Hamas on many occasions and interviewed their fighters.

They were always much more like a militia at war with Israel, rather than bloodthirsty killers and torturers.

Something has changed.

 

"We saw women with no clothes and hands tied to the back," he says. "We saw families... over here in this kibbutz I saw families with hands tied to the back, sitting parents and children, sitting one against the other, tortured.

"We could see the bodies were telling the stories.

"You know they can't talk but they were telling us their stories, they were crying together with us."

 

He continued: "In Kfar Aza and Be'eri, we are talking about a total of 280 bodies, 280 casualties.

"I would say 80% were tortured, and you're talking children, adults...

"You're talking a pile, two piles - when we found them in Be'eri, two piles of 10 children each were tied to the back, burnt to death…"

He says as far as he can tell, Hamas's killers had time to do whatever they wanted.

"They had the time, nobody bothered them, they had the manpower - I wouldn't call it manpower - the butcher power…"

 

 

[Breakingthewall]

14 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

@Breakingthewall israel was sneak attacked...there is a bit of a difference.  It is not expanding it is destroying the threat to its own existence.   Is destroying another's existence morally right?  Never.  But this goes back to the question of spiral dynamics.   Israel has two choices here.   It can just cease to exist at all - which perhaps is the more biblical position - or it can become the dog trying to eat the dog - to preserve its survival.   They chose not to be the martyr.   And that's fine.  It doesn't make them any less wise or any less biblical.  It just means they want to survive.  And you can't blame them for that.

You are wrong. Israel is entering the borders of another nation, which it does not recognize, to stole its territory. If Israel did not do that, and recognized Palestine as a nation, then morality would be on its side, but if it continues to expand within the borders of another nation, no.

You can say that since they attacked him in 1970, then now, in 2023, I take away your lands, but it doesn't make much sense. If he stops stealing land, returns what he has stolen, and recognizes Palestine, maybe there will be peace. It's pretty simple

Edited October 16, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Hatfort]

45 minutes ago, bambi said:

Why cant Israel and palestine become one nation and all palestinains get equal rights and passports??!!!!

Because the Zionists don't want it, they want their Jewish state. Israel is a Jewish religious place name, so it's exclusionary to other creeds.

The best solution would be the one secular state solution called Palestine, which was the name before. Palestine included Muslims, Christians, and Jews, all of them Palestinians. It was inclusive, look at the called Palestinian Jews, the native ones. There are third or fourth-generation Jews now, I mean descendants of colonizers, and they are from that land too. But so are the thousands of native Palestinian refugees who left that land when they were forcefully moved and their descendants. And, yeah, with the same passport. Obviously, with the individual and collective freedoms of professing the religion freely chosen, or none, like more people do now. Atheists, agnostics and spiritual weirdos like many of us here, I guess.

The other solution could be the two-state partition, one Israel the Jewish, the other Palestine, non-Jewish. The Zionists are not serious about it, they refused when the OLP accepted this way, and they have been sabotaging any future chances for it, building more and more settlements in Cisjordania and destroying Gaza, last days more intensely, but it's been the norm for decades.

I don't see any other solution, more war more war isn't working so far, and I don't think it will.

[Inliytened1]

8 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

You are wrong. Israel is entering the borders of another nation, which it does not recognize, to keep its territory. If Israel did not do that, and recognized Palestine as a nation, then morality would be on its side, but if it continues to expand within the borders of another nation, no.

You can say that since they attacked him in 1970, then now, in 2023, I take away your lands, but it doesn't make much sense. If he stops stealing land, returns what he has stolen, and recognizes Palestine, maybe there will be peace. It's pretty simple

It is Palestine that wants more not Israel.    Why does Israel have to recognize anything?  Isn't that up to the United Nations?

"The State of Palestine is a partially recognized sovereign state, similar to Kosovo and Taiwan, which is currently classified as a "non-member observer state" by the United Nations. As of April 2022, Palestine 138 of the United Nations' 193 members (and one observer) have recognized Palestine"

Again - remember who attacked who.  And who is defending what.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Inliytened1

[Lila9]

Here is Yuval's Noah Harari perspective on Hamas (an Israeli historian, philosopher and the bestselling author of Sapiens, Homo Deus and Unstoppable Us):

https://time.com/6324254/israel-hamas-war-peace-yuval-noah-harari/

 

Some quotes from the article:

Quote

A few hours before the festival began, Hamas terrorists invaded and occupied the kibbutz. The terrorists went from house to house, systematically torturing, murdering, and kidnapping dozens of kibbutz members. All five members of the Kutz family were slaughtered.

The mind boggles at such atrocities. Why do human beings do such things? What did Hamas hope to achieve? The aim of the Hamas attack was not to capture and hold territory. Hamas didn’t have the military capability to hold the kibbutz for long in face of the Israeli army. To understand the aims of Hamas, three things should be noted. First, Hamas largely focused its attack on killing and kidnapping civilians rather than soldiers. Second, Hamas terrorists tortured and executed adults, children, and even babies in the most gruesome ways the terrorists could think of. Third, instead of trying to hide the atrocities, Hamas made sure they were publicized, even filming some of the atrocities itself and uploading the shocking videos to social media.

This is the very definition of terrorism, and we have seen similar things before with ISIS. Unlike conventional warfare that usually aims to capture territory or degrade military capabilities, terrorism is a form of psychological warfare that aims to terrify. By killing hundreds of people in horrendous ways and publicizing it, organizations like ISIS and Hamas seek to terrify millions. In addition to spreading terror, Hamas also aims to sow seeds of hatred in the minds of millions— Israelis, Palestinians, and other people throughout the world.

Quote

Hamas is different from other Palestinian organization like the PLO, and should not be equated with the whole Palestinian people. Since its foundation, Hamas adamantly refused to recognize Israel’s right to exist, and has done everything in its power to ruin every chance for peace between Israelis and Palestinians, and between Israel and the Arab world. The immediate background to the current cycle of violence is the peace treaties signed between Israel and several Gulf States, and the hoped-for peace treaty between Israel and Saudi Arabia. This treaty was expected not only to normalize relations between Israel and most of the Arab world, but also to somewhat alleviate the suffering of millions of Palestinians living under Israeli occupation, and to restart the Israeli-Palestinian peace process. Nothing alarms Hamas more than the possibility of peace. This is why it launched its attack—and this is why it murdered the Kutz family and more than a thousand other Israeli civilians. What Hamas has done is a crime against humanity in the deepest sense of the term. A crime against humanity isn’t just about killing humans. It is about destroying our trust in humanity. When you witness things like parents being tortured and executed in front of their children, or toddlers brutally murdered, you lose all trust in human beings. And you thereby risk losing your own humanity, too.

 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Lila9

[Breakingthewall]

2 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

It is Palestine that wants more not Israel.

It is not an opinion, it is a fact. Israel has 621 thousand settlers in the territory of the West Bank and continues to expand it. 200 thousand are in a zone prohibited by international law, this fact is defined as a war crime. There are far-right politicians in the Israeli government who promote the greater Israel, that is, all the territory for them, none for the Palestinians, who have a different status than the Israelis. different is obviously inferior. Should the Palestinians see how Israel is taking over their territory?

[Inliytened1]

4 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

It is not an opinion, it is a fact. Israel has 621 thousand settlers in the territory of the West Bank and continues to expand it. 200 thousand are in a zone prohibited by international law, this fact is defined as a war crime. There are far-right politicians in the Israeli government who promote the greater Israel, that is, all the territory for them, none for the Palestinians, who have a different status than the Israelis. different is obviously inferior. Should the Palestinians see how Israel is taking over their territory?

Even if all of that was correct- if you are going by the Bible  - which you obviously are - then Palestine should be a martyr and not an aggressor.   Did you ever see Gandhi attack his oppressors?  Please see the hypocrisy in your words.  It doesn't matter who is right or who is wrong.  Who ignited blood violence first?  That would be a terrorist group hell bent on wiping out the Jewish state.  And that group wasn't the Jews.  It just might have a been a group full of more greed then these great Israeli generals you speak of.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Inliytened1

[AerisVahnEphelia]

@Inliytened1 Gandhi wasn't against war, he was just smart enough to know what moves would get him to achieve his goal.

[Breakingthewall]

@Lila9  

Yes, the actions of Hamas are horrible and deserve everyone's condemnation, and it would be good if all of Hamas disappeared, this is one thing, and another thing is that Israel has been committing abuse, acts of war, racism and colonialism against Palestine from decades. Both are true. 

1 minute ago, Inliytened1 said:

Did you ever see Gandhi attack his oppressors?  Please see the hypocrisy in your words

Where I said that I agree with the attack? I only pointed out the intolerable colonialist abuse that Israel commits towards Palestine.