New War In Israel / Gaza

[AerisVahnEphelia]

Maybe people shall think more about leaving off the desert mythologic bs.

The paradox of tolerance, we tolerate tribes and non sense, and that's the result.

It's a crime against humanity to tolerate any tribes and any religions and to side for the tolerance of the baby fairy tale.

That's not helping to let people asleep in their farts.

Adults shall rule the world, and baby shall learn from them instead.

The only terrorism I see, are people who encourage dividing tribes religioustic non sense as being tolerable.

tolerance to non sense, that is one of the root of real terrorism against world unity.

For me everyone who ascribe himself to a tribe is a dormant terrorist at best, or an active one at worst.

 

Maybe that's cause in my local area of upbringing, communitarianism is psychologically banned and seen like a trouble to the constitution.

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by AerisVahnEphelia

[Breakingthewall]

4 minutes ago, AerisVahnEphelia said:

Maybe people shall think more about leaving off the desert mythologic bs.

The paradox of tolerance, we tolerate tribes and non sense, and that's the result.

It's a crime against humanity to tolerate any tribes and any religions and to side for the tolerance of the baby fairy tale.

That's not helping to let people asleep in their farts.

Adults shall rule the world, and baby shall learn from them instead.

The only terrorism I see, are people who encourage dividing tribes religioustic non sense as being tolerable.

tolerance to non sense, that is one of the root of real terrorism against world unity.

For me everyone who ascribe himself to a tribe is a dormant terrorist at best, or an active one at worst.

 

Maybe that's cause in my local area of upbringing, communautarism is psychologically banned and seen like a trouble to the constitution.

 

Totally agree, But we have to understand that the human being is extremely vulnerable and stupid and is not capable of being a free individual, he never has been, he needs group identity for his balance. Only today is a current of freedom emerging, but let's not fool ourselves, it is a minority and fragile. It is intelligence vs. stupidity, enlightenment vs. darkness, freedom vs. slavery. It's good to be aware of it.

[HMD]

38 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

@HMD That map is false, there was then no independent Palestine or an Identity that came along it (that formed later or at the time.) Most of the land owners were elite Arabs from the region who sold land to Jews. The second map was a proposal refused by Arabs who went to war, the third map was of the territories being controlled by Egypt and Jordan until they again went to war and lost it.

Let's assume all of what you said is true. It still doesn't justify Israel’s takeover of that region. 

[Breakingthewall]

4 minutes ago, HMD said:

Let's assume all of what you said is true. It still doesn't justify Israel’s takeover of that region. 

Your vision is that of the Arabs. you only see one side. What would be your reaction if you were systematically attacked with the intention of extermination for 100 years, including two attempted invasions by coalitions of countries much larger than yours.

You can't relax, they want to kill you. If you want to survive you must control the situation. If you are benevolent to those who want your extermination, they will take advantage of that. They are not going to accept nice gestures, only your disappearance. Put yourself in that situation, what would you do? think about it honestly. Probably be much more hard

[HMD]

34 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

e thing is that seen from the outside it seems that the Israelis have a less closed identity, and it's getting more close and hard due the aggressive behavior of the Muslims,

I understand your perspective. And don't you think Israel’s occupation of Gaza and its closed identity is multifaceted? Like, there could be several reasons for it, other than Muslim aggression. 

For instance, they might want to solidify their identity and appear strong after the Holocaust, they may have got greedy with expanding their territory (like all systems do). 

[Leo Gura]

Of course nationalism is at play on both sides in this whole situation. The challenge is how to keep the nationalism healthy without devolving into toxic genocidal behavior. Both sides must restrain themselves to prevent genociding the other. The levels of development of both sides is not high enough to preclude genocidal behavior. A portion of both sides would love to do genocide. Those factions must be kept in check.

Edited October 15, 2023 by Leo Gura

[HMD]

@Breakingthewall The Palestinians never advocated for Israel’s extermination. 

And if you think Hammas is trying to exterminate Israel, keep in mind that there is plenty of evidence that Hammas was initially founded by Israel itself. 

Why? Maybe because it’s difficult to grab more land when there is peace. But if there is a monster that they can blame and scapegoat to, then it’s easy to kill thousands of people in the name of self-defense. Understand that a two-state resolution goes against Israel’s interest. 

I am not in support of Hamas neither do I support their action. Even Palestinian don’t want Hamas to represent them (only 31% of Palestinians say that they want Hamas to represents them). 

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, HMD said:

if you think Hammas is trying to exterminate Israel

They certainly are. They just don't have the means to achieve it.

Since Hamas is so weak they can be a useful foil for Zionist hardliners who would love to use Hamas as an excuse to justify taking over as much land as possible and not have to negotiate.

Edited October 15, 2023 by Leo Gura

[HMD]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Both sides must restrain themselves to prevent genociding the other.

Yup. And Israel has greater power to achieve such a goal. It's a nuclear power.

[HMD]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

They certainly are. They just don't have the means to achieve it.

Yes, they are. But Hamas is a child of Israel. 

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, HMD said:

But Hamas is a child of Israel. 

If you told that to Hamas, they would kill you.

That's like telling them that they are the spawn of Satan.

Edited October 15, 2023 by Leo Gura

[BassamMo]

5 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

That's really sad and ignorant that you sould put them in the same category. Israel just wants to protect what is theirs.   War is brutal, but Israel is just defending its own existence, as it has for thousands of years.  Do not put them in the same category as terrorists. 

You're finding this take ignorant because you're totally biased and can't really see the bigger picture from both sides 

[Breakingthewall]

22 minutes ago, HMD said:

 

 

15 minutes ago, HMD said:

The Palestinians never advocated for Israel’s extermination

Well, maybe not the extermination as a race, just its disappearance as a state and its expulsion from the territory. Palestinians will not settle for less. When terrorism began, in 1920, there was not a territorial problem, but one of identity, religious. The 6-day war was not started over territory but over the founding of a state. An attempt was made to prevent it, but it was not possible, and we must assume and accept it. It is something that has happened, you have to live with it. Looking back eternally and feeding hatred is sick. The solution that is the Israeli expulsion is impossible and the apocalypse. but the Palestinians prefer that to accepting and looking for solutions and looking forward. It's a behavior against life, childish, immature, just for proud. Like: I prefer that all my kids die but save my imaginary proud

Edited October 15, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[AerisVahnEphelia]

@Breakingthewall I understand the need for bridges, but It's not fast enough, so much potential for humanity that is wasted away.

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by AerisVahnEphelia

[HMD]

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

If you told that to Hamas, they would kill you.

Of course. I can't go to someone's face and call them a bastard, even if they are. 

[HMD]

"Furthermore, Brig General Yitzhak Segev, who was the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 198os, told a New York Times reporter that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a "counterweight to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who himself referred to Hamas as a creature of Israel')." General Segev even admitted to funding"

"Regrets among those Israeli officials who helped the creation of Hamas are well documented. For instance, Avner Cohen, a Tunisia-born Jew who was an Israeli official in Gaza dealing with religious affairs during 1970s and 1980s, lamented that "Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation". He observed the Islamist"

PLO was a headache for Israelis BECAUSE IT WAS BASED ON secular nationalism. They were not spreading antisemitism. They were advocating for a document based solution instead of war, which was not appealing to the west and Israel. 

[HMD]

22 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

the Palestinians prefer that to accepting and looking for solutions and looking forward.

Okay, but then explain what happened with PLO ?

[HMD]

17 minutes ago, HMD said:

PLO was a headache for Israelis BECAUSE IT WAS BASED ON SECONDARY NATIONS. They were not spreading anti-Semitism. They were advocating for a document-based solution instead of war, which was not appealing to the West and Israel.

Why was secular nationalism more dangerous than, let's say, Religious nationalism? That's because secularity is a struggle for homeland. That's why Noa chomsky said that the west discouraged National secularism and spread Religious nationalism, so that when your country is being looted you don't care about it much and focus on international religion based issues. So, when there are struggles for secular nationalism in a country, it's difficult to perform exploitation there.

44 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

They certainly are. They just don't have the means to achieve it.

Reminds me of  what Nietzsche said " Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings, who think themselves good because they have crippled paws!"

I love how even after Japan was bombed by the US no terrorist organizations were formed. And today, they are standing head to head with them. They fought with innovation and by making themselves better. That's something the Muslim community fails to see. Competition is the way forward, not war. 

Edited October 15, 2023 by HMD

[An young being]

8 minutes ago, HMD said:

I love how even after Japan was bombed by the US no terrorist organizations were formed. And today, they are standing head to head with them. They fought with innovation and by making themselves better.

I wonder where Japan would have been now, if those bombs were not dropped. How a sudden shock impacts differently than a prolonged war.

[Starlight321]

28 minutes ago, HMD said:

"Furthermore, Brig General Yitzhak Segev, who was the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 198os, told a New York Times reporter that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a "counterweight to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who himself referred to Hamas as a creature of Israel')." General Segev even admitted to funding"

"Regrets among those Israeli officials who helped the creation of Hamas are well documented. For instance, Avner Cohen, a Tunisia-born Jew who was an Israeli official in Gaza dealing with religious affairs during 1970s and 1980s, lamented that "Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation". He observed the Islamist"

PLO was a headache for Israelis BECAUSE IT WAS BASED ON secular nationalism. They were not spreading antisemitism. They were advocating for a document based solution instead of war, which was not appealing to the west and Israel. 

Yeah, that happened. Foreign powers support all groups to advance their agenda all the time. However it is still a different matter if you support a group with the intention to undermine the opposite side or to create a extremist terrorist organisation who massacre your people intentionally.  

I don't think that the people then thought that far ahead and for the israeli side it was a good move at the time and it had been still useful up to that point last week in order to justify their policy.

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by Starlight321