New War In Israel / Gaza

[DocWatts]

23 minutes ago, Scholar said:

You are moralizing again. This is irrelevant.

The major reason for this isn't just trauma, but ideological indoctrination by islamist actors. They are making the problem 10x worse.

You can have valid frustration, and then bad faith actors who exploit that valid frustration not in the interest of the population itself but in the interest of their own goals. This is what is occuring in gaza under Hamas. It makes peace simply impossible, independent of how Israel acts.

Thing is, I don't disagree that what's going on is a combination of collective trauma and indoctrination by bad faith actors who are making the problem worse.

My point is that the way you undercut extremism is by actually addressing the desperate social conditions that are fueling groups like Hamas, which is the direct result of Israeli policy. And thus primarily the responsibility of the Israeli state and the international community to address, rather than that of a captive population with very little power to change things on thier own.

Also, some people seem to be under the impression that Israel would somehow be incapable of defending itself if a two state solution is adopted. Which of course is ridiculous, as its one of the most formidable militaries in the world (and not to mention a nuclear power that's also backed by the United States), and a two state solution wouldn't change that.

Edited October 13, 2023 by DocWatts

[Scholar]

24 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

My point is that the way you undercut extremism is by actually addressing the desperate social conditions that are fueling groups like Hamas, which is the direct result of Israeli policy.

This is not necessarily true, see the post above where I describe self-perpetuating dynamics.

There is a reason for Israeli policy. While some of it is irrational right wing nonsense (which also has it's causes), much of it simply is a result of the dynamic at play. If you are going to pretend Israel is an all powerful god like entity that will not be biased towards itself then you are not engaging with reality in a way that will lead to positive outcomes for anyone. You should take some time and read up on the history of the conflict and what lead up to the decisions being made, from a perspective that is biased towards Israel.

 

24 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

Also, some people seem to be under the impression that Israel would somehow be incapable of defending itself if a two state solution is adopted. Which of course is ridiculous, as its one of the most formidable militaries in the world (and not to mention a nuclear power that's also backed by the United States), and a two state solution wouldn't change that.

How can you not see how naive this is? Israel's existence is not at all guaranteed, and just because they might be able to defend themselves from two fronts does not mean that is a rational action from their point of view. What do you think "defending" entails? It would lead to killing of civilians and war, likely far more than it is now. You are demanding from Israel far more than is reasonable, and your inability to recognize this is directly related to why this problem will not be solved.

This is what leftists do. They will tell white people how they are privileged, and in some sense this is true. But you fail to realize that none of that matters when the white people you address themselves suffer and don't feel privileged at all. You cannot demand from white people to act impartially just because there "white privilege" exists. These are human beings, they are as flawed and self-interested and anyone else. Telling them they shouldn't be self interested and suffer silently because of systemic racism is just not productive whatsoever.

 

If you have neighbours that literally want to genocide and destroy your state, do you think you would give them the ability to build a state apparatus they then could use against you in ways that might, over the long term compromise your entire security? How biased do you have to be to not see that this is a demand that is completely irrational. No state would act this way, it would be genuinely idiotic to do so. This problem cannot be resolved with such a naive, one sided, moralistic approach.

 

You can throw around blame and who is more responsible and powerful as long as you want, if you don't realize this, you will simply not understand why this conflict persists.

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Scholar

[zazen]

Ideological indoctrination doesn't just apply to Hamas but to Israeli's themselves - even citizens of the West are subjected to propaganda by their own elites. In fact, the more sophisticated a society (developed) the more sophisticated the tools at their disposal to propagandise the populace. We just have to be aware of the fact that both sides have bad actors propagandising for their own interests.

Just because something or someone doesn't cause a dynamic to be set in motion (Israel) doesn't mean it doesn't contribute to it going on. This is the fallacy of the conspiratorial minded who think everything is caused by the few, and it’s opposite extreme thinking everything is random and blind to the fews contribution to affects that effects the masses.

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by zazen

[DocWatts]

1 hour ago, PurpleTree said:

I like the term islamo-fascists for the extremists. There should also be a good term for the extremists on the other side

It's also a simple recognition that a violent, ethnocentric cult of nationalism isn't the exclusive purview of any particular region or people, but can spring up anywhere if the social conditions are conducive to it. One doesn't have to look far to see how there are elements of this on the Israeli side as well among the far right.

Edited October 13, 2023 by DocWatts

[randmonzzin]

in case you missed this video, that's why HAMAS has muslims respect unlike the USA-Supported Making-Money Machine (IS*IS)

I've been in this forum for years and I rarely comment, but this time , I see an unprecedented propaganda against Palestinians. let me tell you this: 
Israel they make a peace deal with palestinias , the very next day they make a killings , this has been going on for decades. 
So who to blame ? 
Hamas buys weapons from israelis traffickers , they buy intels from their own enemies. 

[PurpleTree]

4 minutes ago, ramosthe5 said:

„So who‘s to blame?“

For what?

free palestine

long live israel

i love seinfeld

extremism not so cool

Edited October 13, 2023 by PurpleTree

[randmonzzin]

 

11 minutes ago, Nabd said:

At the end of the day I think we can all agree that killings of middle easterners is normalized in the western world.

We can argue all day long about Hamas being a terrorist group or not but the world clearly doesn't care about this part of the world being colonized or killed in millions. That is the opening to understand why violence is the only language. That's how people hear them.

You can't just treat people worse than animals and have them bombed and cut food and water either in Gaza or in other places and then act all surprised when they retaliate in brutal ways. It is actually a miracle that there are not that much terrorist attacks in Europe or the US.

One big advantage Muslims have is that they are generally much braver than any other enemy. They just don't care when their dignity is at stake. They would infiltrate the enemy, cause massive damage and wouldn't think twice before blowing himself up as he run out of ammo.

Not All muslims are like that, we have our shares of cowards too.  We are easily triggered and we have huge illiteracy .  
Companies that sells guns are the profitee from this shithole. 

[DocWatts]

55 minutes ago, Scholar said:

This is not necessarily true, see the post above where I describe self-perpetuating dynamics.

There is a reason for Israeli policy. While some of it is irrational right wing nonsense (which also has it's causes), much of it simply is a result of the dynamic at play. If you are going to pretend Israel is an all powerful god like entity that will not be biased towards itself then you are not engaging with reality in a way that will lead to positive outcomes for anyone. You should take some time and read up on the history of the conflict and what lead up to the decisions being made, from a perspective that is biased towards Israel.

You're literally 'both-sides'-ing an apartheid regime under a false pretense of neutrality. While it's legitimate to point out that groups like Hamas are bad actors who are making the situation worse, there's no version of Reality where the power dynamics aren't overwhelmingly in favor of the Israeli state over the captive Palestinian population that's being held under a military occupation.

Edited October 13, 2023 by DocWatts

[Danioover9000]

@DocWatts

25 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

You're literally 'both-sides'-ing an apartheid regime under a false pretense of neutrality. While it's legitimate to point out that groups like Hamas are bad actors who are making the situation worse, there's no version of Reality where the power dynamics aren't overwhelmingly in favor of the Israeli state over the captive Palestinian population that's being held under a military occupation.

   Exactly my point against this google scholar, both siding Israel/Palestinian conflict, ignores the power dynamics and asymmetrical power differences that let Israel abuse Palestinians and oppress them via Zionism ethnostate pursuit. Again, sometimes nuance bro and agnostics has it's place and time referencing Spiral Dynamics as another pivoting Gish galloping to avoid and distract from the real and local issue of the Palestine/Israel conflict, but not when it's clear one place is more powerful than another and abuses their power.

[Socrates]

Peterson went from calling for genocide to this stupid post. How is he such a pretentious fuck nowadays, nobody buys his sanctimonious speech...

Edited October 13, 2023 by Socrates

[Vrubel]

First reports of small groups of Israeli special forces having entered Gaza trying to locate hostages. Godspeed!

[Breakingthewall]

45 minutes ago, Nabd said:

At this point I am just worried about my chances of going to Europe. Those shouting anti-Jewish slogans should trade place with people in Gaza and the middle east so they can try and actualize their slogans.

Seeing the father who was happy because he was told that his daughter was dead, since the other option would be that she was in the hands of demons, has convinced me forever. There are no nuances here. It is the fight against demons. 

 

If one day I see that Israelis commit multiple rapes and then torture the victim while laughing and after that thousands of other Israelis take to the streets to celebrate, then I will think that this is a conflict on the same level. meanwhile, I will think that it is a conflict of demons against humans 

If I were Israeli, now I would be waiting to go in to kill demons and die if it's necessary

Edited October 13, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Bufo Alvarius]

 

[Breakingthewall]

53 minutes ago, Nabd said:

At this point I am just worried about my chances of going to Europe

I hope you get it. a guy like you is welcome anywhere

[Mohammad]

1 hour ago, Socrates said:

Peterson went from calling for genocide to this stupid post. How is he such a pretentious fuck nowadays, nobody buys his sanctimonious speech...

Dude should stick to psychology.

[Hardkill]

Hey guys, is this news true?

https://nypost.com/2023/10/13/dramatic-video-shows-israeli-naval-commandos-retaking-gaza-border-post/

[PurpleTree]

10 minutes ago, nuwu said:

Both sides are filled with collective traumas. This situation will be difficult to resolve.

This can’t be solved with politicians. Maybe try with psychiatrists.

[Danioover9000]

   Journalist doing GOD's work:

 

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, Bufo Alvarius said:

 

That guy misrepresents, like many. Let's see, if Hamas had bombed Tel Aviv and killed 100 thousand people, and then in Yemen, Pakistan, Iran, etc., it had been celebrated, I would think...well, maybe they have reasons for it, war. But if they have tortured and killed families, gang raped girls and then tortured them and diffused the videos and all the Arabs celebrate, I say: demons. Even if it were only two girls against 200,000 dead in a bombing to expell the Jews and recover the land, it is completely different. One thing is do the war, bomb and kill to expell the enemy, and another rape and torture for hate, and celebrate it.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[MAHAVATAR_-_BABAJI]

On 10/7/2023 at 3:00 PM, Leo Gura said:

This is def not a false flag.

Don't start with that.

Exactly!!!