New War In Israel / Gaza

[PurpleTree]

2 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

If they agreed to the two state solution compromise this conflict would effectively be over.

That also we don’t know for sure

[An young being]

1 minute ago, Scholar said:

See the polling data. Hamas, nor palestinian, view a two state solution as acceptable. If a two state solution did occur, they would fight until all of palestine was freed, and all original land returned to them.

This is what happens when you radicalize an entire generation for your holy war, which is precisely what happened under Hamas.

Congrats! You are the 1111th post.

[Danioover9000]

@PurpleTree

1 hour ago, PurpleTree said:

Yes girls fight fight fight

 

jk

   Not a joke, this is seriously disappointing. The levels of misinformation. Yes, go and condemn HAMAs, meanwhile sweep under the rug what makes up HAMAs: disenfranchised, oppressed, poor, desperate Palestinians that have no choice but to fight Israel, which makes them open to more radicalization.

[Scholar]

There is a simple mistake in thinking that is occuring here, and leftists have a tendency to fall for this trap:

It is the assumption that once you remove the cause for a dynamic, the dynamic will disappear as well. This is true to some degree, but what is being missed here is that usually what occurs is that the dynamic develops a self-perpetuating mechanism. You can see this all over nature in general, and in relation to social dynamics, we can see this manifesting as cultural attitudes and ideologies.

 

In this case, there is a false assumption that if we remove the conditions which caused frustration and hatred in the gazans/palestinians, that they then will also lose the attitude that are a result of that frustration. But this is far from guaranteed, because at some point the frustration manifests as a cultural attitude that is self-perpetuating. At that point, you can remove the initial causative condition and yet see no change in attitudes as well, in fact it might lead to the opposite, a bolstering of those attitudes. You see this in practice with how stage green interacts with stage red in the US, through naive empathy and solidarity actually harming the victmized person as a result of not understanding their state of being. This can encourage destructive behaviour, rather than actually help mitigate it.

 

The "Free Palestine" movement is precisely this type of harmful dynamic. It encourages self-righteousness and blind hatred in the victims, causing them to act in ways that will bring more harm to them. There is a version of this that could have been helpful, but the movement is so infested with blind hatred and rage that all this will do is cause more blind hatred and rage.

This is a huge blindspot for stage green.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Scholar

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, ramosthe5 said:

you're born in Gaza , you're born dead already. The amount of oppressions that Israel commits is just inhuman.

Yes, for sure, a tough circumstance. In Cuba, for example, they also have power outages and a blockade for decades, but they dance, they make movies, they write poetry, they fuck a lot, they study, they are doctors, musicians, and they don't hate anyone. neither to the Americans, nor to their dictatorship, nor to life in general.  They see the positive in life, but it seems that Muslims need to be victims to justify their failure as a civilization, always crying and hating others.

What Muslims should do is celebrate a day of thanksgiving to the West, and say: thank you West, without you we would not have cars, airplanes, telephones, electricity, medicine... we thank you for those gifts and we are going to push hard for the evolution and freedom of humanity

[DocWatts]

23 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

That also we don’t know for sure

True. So let me rephrase that: we have very good evidence to believe that given the options that are available, it would offer the best avenue for massively de-escalating the conflict, and in the long run would offer the best chance at lasting peace for both sides in this conflict.

Creating tolerable and humane living conditions for Palestinians, and giving them the possibility of a hopeful future, is the most reliable way of undercutting the appeal of death-cult organizations like Hamas. Under the status quo there's zero reason for a Palestinian suffering under Israeli apartheid to be hopeful for a better future. Hardly surprising that these social conditions fuel extremism.

Edited October 13, 2023 by DocWatts

[PurpleTree]

1 minute ago, Danioover9000 said:

@PurpleTree

   Not a joke, this is seriously disappointing. The levels of misinformation. Yes, go and condemn HAMAs, meanwhile sweep under the rug what makes up HAMAs: disenfranchised, oppressed, poor, desperate Palestinians that have no choice but to fight Israel, which makes them open to more radicalization.

And what made up isis and the people that attacked civilians, women children, partygoers in france, germany, belgium etc?

[Scholar]

2 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

True. So let me rephrase that: we have very good evidence to believe that given the options that are available, it would offer the best avenue for massively de-escalating the conflict, and in the long run would offer the best chance at lasting peace for both sides in this conflict.

But this is not true, see the polling data and my post expanding on the idea of naive empathy. This kind of thinking is what adds conflict and harm, because it lacks an understanding of human nature and self-perpetuating dynamics.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Scholar

[Danioover9000]

@Scholar

4 minutes ago, Scholar said:

There is a simple mistake in thinking that is occuring here, and leftists have a tendency to fall for this trap:

It is the assumption that once you remove the cause for a dynamic, the dynamic will disappear as well. This is true to some degree, but what is being missed here is that usually what occurs is that the dynamic develops a self-perpetuating mechanism. You can see this all over nature in general, and in relation to social dynamics, we can see this manifesting as cultural attitudes and ideologies.

 

In this case, there is a false assumption that if we remove the conditions which caused frustration and hatred in the gazans/palestinians, that they then will also lose the attitude that are a result of that frustration. But this is far from guaranteed, because at some point the frustration manifests as a cultural attitude that is self-perpetuating. At that point, you can remove the initial causative condition and yet see no change in attitudes as well, in fact it might lead to the opposite, a bolstering of those attitudes. You see this in practice with how stage green interacts with stage red, through naive empathy actually harming the person as a result of not understanding their state of being. This can encourage destructive behaviour, rather than actually help mitigate it.

 

The "Free Palestine" movement is precisely this type of harmful dynamic. It encourages self-righteousness and blind hatred in the victims, causing them to act in ways that will bring more harm to them. There is a version of this that could have been helpful, but the movement is so infested with blind hatred and rage that all this will do is cause more blind hatred and rage.

This is a huge blindspot for stage green.

   So don't protest against humanitarian issues, and not argue against Israel?

Edited October 13, 2023 by Danioover9000

[Scholar]

3 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Scholar

   So don't protest against humanitarian issues?

Protest in such a way as to not cause more harm than good. Blindly screeching free palestine during and after terrorists killed almost 2000 civilians is a sure way to motivate further conflict and self-righteousness on both sides.

 

In fact, this attitude is one factors that contributed to the occurance of World War 2 and the holocaust.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Scholar

[Danioover9000]

@Scholar

1 minute ago, Scholar said:

Protest in such a way as to not cause more harm than good. Blindly screeching free palestine during and after terrorists killed almost 2000 civilians is a sure way to motivate further conflict and self-righteousness on both sides.

   Protest in such a way that doesn't put pressure on Israel to stop it's Zionism expansion onto Palestinian territory because that's anti Semitic? What if all peaceful protesting isn't moving Israel's interest and hegemony to occupy all of Palestine, into seeking diplomacy? What's left for Palestinians to do when Israel is actively oppressing Palestinians in Gaza and west bank?

[Breakingthewall]

9 minutes ago, Scholar said:

You see this in practice with how stage green interacts with stage red,

What is terribly humiliating is being on the red stage and that those on the green stage beat you up with one hand. That is what humiliates Muslims on cosmic levels.

[Scholar]

1 minute ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Scholar

   Protest in such a way that doesn't put pressure on Israel to stop it's Zionism expansion onto Palestinian territory because that's anti Semitic? What if all peaceful protesting isn't moving Israel's interest and hegemony to occupy all of Palestine, into seeking diplomacy? What's left for Palestinians to do when Israel is actively oppressing Palestinians in Gaza and west bank?

You are not putting pressure on Israel, you are showcasing your lack of maturity and sensitivity. You are encouraging blind acts of terrorism and you are encouraging blind acts of retaliation.

If you don't know how to protest the oppression of the palestinian people in a mature and intelligent way, then it is better to simply remove yourself from this issue, because your potential to cause harm is greater than your potential to cause peace.

 

[Breakingthewall]

37 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

and that Hamas is an Islamo-fascist organization that would be just as brutal if they were in a comparable position of power to the Israeli state

Well, maybe bit more brutal

[Breakingthewall]

53 minutes ago, zurew said:

You don't know for sure how they would live if Israel didn't exist. But even if I buy into the premise that they would live worse , thats that still won't justify the bad things Israel did against Palestine.

Yeah, The Israelis have blockaded Gaza and appropriated land, after 60 years of conflict with people who want your death. It is something that has happened step by step. Israel has not behaved perfectly, but the Palestinians have never attempted peaceful coexistence. If they had tried, Israel would have accepted. Violence has always played against the Arabs, each violent action has brought loss of rights, but they do not learn, they continue the same, wanting to exterminate those who are much stronger than them. They cannot exterminate Israel, it is a fact, but instead of admitting it, they indoctrinate their children in sterile hatred. What is your future going to be with that negative attitude? the total shit.

[PurpleTree]

I like the term islamo-fascists for the extremists. There should also be a good term for the extremists on the other side

[PurpleTree]

4 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

I like the term islamo-fascists for the extremists. There should also be a good term for the extremists on the other side

I like it because stage green or whatever hates fascists. But they will defend islamists suppressing women and lgbt (and worse), attacking civilians etc. So i hope the term melts their brains

[DocWatts]

22 minutes ago, Scholar said:

But this is not true, see the polling data and my post expanding on the idea of naive empathy. This kind of thinking is what adds conflict and harm, because it lacks an understanding of human nature and self-perpetuating dynamics.

And what I'm saying is that these polls are being asked in the context of a people who are currently undergoing a highly traumatic experience (being the victims of a genocide). I'm sure if you were somehow able to poll American soldiers over what they thought should happen to Japan while those soldiers were in midst of a death march after falling into captivity of the Japanese military, you'd get similar results to the polls you mentioned.

[Danioover9000]

@Scholar

16 minutes ago, Scholar said:

You are not putting pressure on Israel, you are showcasing your lack of maturity and sensitivity. You are encouraging blind acts of terrorism and you are encouraging blind acts of retaliation.

If you don't know how to protest the oppression of the palestinian people in a mature and intelligent way, then it is better to simply remove yourself from this issue, because your potential to cause harm is greater than your potential to cause peace.

 

   My position is better than you Gish galloping to nuance bro, at least I lean to support Palestinians over Israel oppressing them, meanwhile you fake centrism and agnosticism, which results in both siding fallacy between Israel/Palestine when it's clear Israel is at fault for creating this mess in the first place. There are times to play I don't know and be agnostic, but there are times when that can and does enable oppression, google scholar.

[Scholar]

2 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

And what I'm saying is that these polls are being asked in the context of a people who are currently undergoing a highly traumatic experience (being the victims of a genocide). I'm sure if you were somehow able to poll American soldiers over what they thought should happen to Japan while those soldiers were in midst of a death march after falling into captivity of the Japanese military, you'd get similar results to the polls you mentioned.

You are moralizing again. This is irrelevant.

The major reason for this isn't just trauma, but ideological indoctrination by islamist actors. They are making the problem 10x worse.

You can have valid frustration, and then bad faith actors who exploit that valid frustration not in the interest of the population itself but in the interest of their own goals. This is what is occuring in gaza under Hamas. It makes peace simply impossible, independent of how Israel acts.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Scholar