New War In Israel / Gaza

[Vrubel]

@Leo Gura From what I understand, civilians are not the target, but Israel will go in very aggressively and uncompromisingly. 

The civilian population will flee but after Israel reaches them cornered I have no I idea where those civilians will go and what will happen to them. All complicated by Hamas being constantly amongst the civilians. They will have no qualms about fighting in civilian clothes. 

 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Vrubel

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi Israel actually warn civilians and tell them to evacuade, but hamas stress them to not evacuade. Hamas wants them to be its own human sheild so when they will die, hamas will use this to show it to the world.

This is how toxic hamas is and this is who we are dealing with. Unfortunately in this situation its impossible to not harm anybody who is innocent but I agree we have to do the maximum effort to fight selectively as we can, but in the other hand Israel doesnt have the privilage to not deactivate this organization.

After this trauma, without deep response from Israel and without a real game change in the region, Psychological changes in Israelis minds and the nations around us might put a serious danger to Israel chances to still exist.

Now this is really a no choice war.

 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

22 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

From what I understand, civilians are not the target, but Israel will go in very aggressively and uncompromisingly. 

Of course. At this point many Palestinian civilians will die, similar to Iraq invasion.

Hamas really screwed over their own people. It was a huge mistake for the Palestinians to allow themselves to be lead by such leadership. That kind of leadership hurts Palestinians more than Israel does. You can't let yourself be lead by suicidal people, otherwise they take you with them to hell.

The question is, how to get healthy leadership for Palestinians after this war? That's gonna be so hard.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Karmadhi]

51 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

What you have to keep in mind that all military activity results in some degree of collateral damage

Israel bombs civilians in purpose and cuts down water supplies. They are even worse than Russians which the west always condemns for war crimes.

They said "free our hostages and we will give water again to 2 million civilians trapped in Gaza". How is that not a war crime I do not understand. How is that most dying in Gaza bombings are civilians and a crazy number of childreen. If they got such advanced precise weapons' they would keep it to a minimum but they do not care. You got many reports from there saying they bomb indiscriminately. 

I can assure you if Russia did to Palestine what Israel does they would get 10 times more shit.

Since you have studied russian conflict well, can you tell me why Russia gets way more shit from the international community than Israel does?

 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

25 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Now this is really a no choice war.

If Israel treated Palestinians humanely for last 70 years this would not happen in first place. It is a consequence of decades of bullying, bombings, taking land and ethnic cleansing. Check in 2014. 30 or something israeli soldiers dead compared to 2000 in gaza (more than half civilian). If this does not show you something is off, I do not know what will. 

I am against killing civilians in general and Hamas is fucked up but I totally understand where they are coming from given their conditions, upbringings etc. 

[Breakingthewall]

4 hours ago, HMD said:

@Breakingthewall You clearly have no idea about the essence of Islam. You’re one of those crude fellas who base their opinions on straw-man arguments. Get nuanced, fella. 

What is the essence of Islam?

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi Please see also what Lila wrote. Israel actually takes care and hospitalized the terrorists it catches including from the last event! Also they have great condition in the prison they can even get a degree.

Many israelis complain that Israel is TOO humanic to them. This is an extremely common conversation here.

Yes this is true that the occupation of the west bank and the friction with the palestines IS corrupting.

But please be nuanced. Israel is much much more complicated than you think.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Nivsch

[Breakingthewall]

19 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Israel treated Palestinians humanely for last 70 years this would not happen in first place

You can always treat others in a more humane and better way, but it is difficult to do so with someone who wants your disappearance and hates you on that level. If instead of Israel it had been another Muslim country, they would have solved the problem in a hard way, like Turkey with the Armenians or Iraq with the Kurds.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[HMD]

@Breakingthewall God

[Breakingthewall]

4 minutes ago, HMD said:

@Breakingthewall God

That is what you believe because you are Muslim and that idea that the Koran is something sacred has penetrated you. It is not difficult, discipline, rituals, and transmission of belief from one person to another, belonging to a community, the feeling of being a good Muslim who is going to go to paradise.

Religion is an infectious virus that makes you hopelessly close off God, since you believe you have already found god. All religions are garbage, and Islam is the most seductive of all garbage, since it makes it easy for you to go to paradise and be a good Muslim, you just have to obey.

[thenondualtankie]

In my opinion it's rather stupid to treat Christianity and Islam as assymmetric. These religions largely fulfil the same purpose and came about due to the same survival incentives.

Both religions have the same ability to be warped in favour of a particular survival agenda. They can both be used to that regard equally. Christianity was used to teach black folk that they are inferior to whites, and that slavery is justified.

Likewise, Islam is used to justify terrorism. But this is because of the survival conditions that these people find themselves in. If you've listened to a single word Leo has said about politics, it's always about SURVIVAL. Survival agenda comes first. The religious justification comes after.

Edited October 12, 2023 by thenondualtankie

[Karmadhi]

23 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Please see also what Lila wrote. Israel actually takes care and hospitalized the terrorists it catches including from the last event! Also they have great condition in the prison they can even get a degree.

Many israelis complain that Israel is TOO humanic to them. This is an extremely common conversation here.

Yes this is true that the occupation of the west bank and the friction with the palestines IS corrupting.

But please be nuanced. Israel is much much more complicated than you think.

Yes and it also killed 2000 palestinians, half civilians in response to 50 of their soldiers being killed in 2014. Such nice humane government they are . It reminds me of Nazi policies during the second world war where for every 1 german soldiers killed by resistance, they killed 100 civilians in response. You see similar numbers here. It is not accident.

23 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

You can always treat others in a more humane and better way, but it is difficult to do so with someone who wants your disappearance and hates you on that level. If instead of Israel it had been another Muslim country, they would have solved the problem in a hard way, like Turkey with the Armenians or Iraq with the Kurds.

Well if you take 90 percent of their land what do you expect. See a map of evolution of land between israel and palestine through the decades and you can easily see the colonization slowly happening.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Karmadhi

[PurpleTree]

what if israel bought a piece/peace of land for palestinians in argentina or something? Obviously not happening from both sides but it could be niiice

[HMD]

@Breakingthewall All I hear is “ I am an arrogant person who has never been humbled, I like to make assumptions and generalisations about other people without knowing jacksh*t about them”. 
 

And that’s not how Islam works. You have been brainwashed by God knows whom. Look into wahdat al wajood and ibn al arabi if you want to understand Islam. Or else, stay ignorant and crude.

[zazen]

@Breakingthewall Two kinds of fools, those who take religion literally and those who see no value in it.

Pure religion acknowledges the shared essence of people at the level of depth, organised religion is a system to organise the differences of people at the surface.

Pure religion eludes to life and the transcendental, organised religion eludes to a way of life and the trivial - people usually conflate the two.

Culture and how to organise society isn't religious in the truest sense, its more structural than spiritual. 

Sometimes, structure can provide guard rails to the spiritual, other times it can hinder it. Organised religion done well would be seen for what it is - a tool for psycho spiritual evolution, a map to God realisation but not the territory of God itself. The map isn't the absolute, but just a path to the absolute.

Essence seduces, establishment created around that essence enforces and corrupts the very essence they intend to transmit through their established structures and traditions.

Edited October 12, 2023 by zazen

[Breakingthewall]

14 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

 

Well if you take 90 percent of their land what do you expect. See a map of evolution of land between israel and palestine through the decades and you can easily see the colonization slowly happening.

It is not that the Jews arrived one day and conquered Palestine, it is that for 170 years they have been emigrating there, buying land and settling. They were lands that no one wanted, a sterile desert. The serious problem began when they wanted to found a state, and they were attacked by a league of allied countries with the aim of destroying them. If they had not been Jews, but Muslims, they would not have been attacked for that reason. What offends the Arabs is not the appropriation of land. Borders change, wars happen, and then peace returns. but not in this case, since they can never tolerate the fact that they are Jews. They must disappear. It's not comfortable living with neighbors like that.

[PurpleTree]

6 minutes ago, zazen said:

@Breakingthewall Two kinds of fools, those who take religion literally and those who see no value in it.

Pure religion acknowledges the shared essence of people at the level of depth, organised religion is a system to organise the differences of people at the surface.

Pure religion eludes to life and the transcendental, organised religion eludes to a way of life and the trivial - people usually conflate the two.

Culture and how to organise society isn't religious in the truest sense, its more structural than spiritual. 

Sometimes, structure can provide guard rails to the spiritual, other times it can hinder it. Organised religion done well would be seen for what it is - a tool for psycho spiritual evolution, a map to God realisation but not the territory of God itself. The map isn't the absolute, but just a path to the absolute.

Essence seduces, establishment created around that essence enforces and corrupts the very essence they intent to transmit through their established structures and traditions.

Can i ask you where you from?

[Breakingthewall]

6 minutes ago, HMD said:

@Breakingthewall All I hear is “ I am an arrogant person who has never been humbled, I like to make assumptions and generalisations about other people without knowing jacksh*t about them”. 
 

And that’s not how Islam works. You have been brainwashed by God knows whom. Look into wahdat al wajood and ibn al arabi if you want to understand Islam. Or else, stay ignorant and crude.

My mother was Turkish, Muslim who was baptized and became a Christian, which is punishable by death in Islam, in the opinion if most of Muslim authorities. any Muslim has the duty to kill you for doing that. Maybe that's why I know Islam somewhat and see it as something quite violent and negative.

 

[PurpleTree]

2 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

My mother was Turkish, Muslim who was baptized and became a Christian, which is punishable by death in Islam, in the opinion if most of Muslim authorities. any Muslim has the duty to kill you for doing that. Maybe that's why I know Islam somewhat and see it as something quite violent and negative.

 

Ok that makes sense. Often the people who were muslims and or had bad experiences become the biggest opponents. Which is fair. I’ve seen videos from a guy. He used to be a muslim extremist and then went to jail. Now he is one of the biggest opponents of islam and islamic extremism in europe and says they should be kicked out of europe. He became a christian. He always quotes the quran against muslims in debates/fights. To me growing up non religious all this seems quite silly

[Karmadhi]

6 minutes ago, Nabd said:

Iran is actively invovled in the killings of over 1 million civilians in Syria since 2012.

So is the west and russia. Everyone got involved in that war in 1 way or another.

6 minutes ago, Nabd said:

They also are involves in the mess you see i Iraq today

USA is by far the biggest reason Iraq is a mess today. How many sanctions did USA get when they invaded Iraq? 

Just to be clear, I am not saying Iran is good but that the international community has double standards when the west does something bad compared to non west doing something bad.

 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Karmadhi