New War In Israel / Gaza

[Leo Gura]

Keep this discourse civil. Do not attack each other.

Don't get bloodthirsty either.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Schizophonia]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Keep this discourse civil. Do not attack each other.

It's true that this is an important and controversial subject, but I have a question of greater importance. 

Can I call you by your French name? ?

Léon Goura

Edited October 10, 2023 by Schizophonia

[Breakingthewall]

5 minutes ago, Tobia said:

20 years in Afghanistan, trillions spent... who's back in charge right after?

It is not necessary to invade Iran and force them to accept democracy, it is enough to destroy their industrial capacity. Let's see, do you think my speech is stupid? It is a country that promotes, from its government, the nuclear destruction of another, because...they don't like it. 

[Schizophonia]

@Tobia

Btw, where is Ahmad Massoud gone ? 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Schizophonia

[Guest Tobia]

@Leo Gura he went full genocidal. Nazi level shit, Gaza has 2 million people living there

[thenondualtankie]

It's quite sickening how many people are suddenly fully on board with Israel, as if Hamas' attacks happened in a vacuum. Why do people think this way?

@Breakingthewall Cut the Islamaphobic BS.

[Schizophonia]

6 minutes ago, thenondualtankie said:

It's quite sickening how many people are suddenly fully on board with Israel, as if Hamas' attacks happened in a vacuum. Why do people think this way?

@Breakingthewall Cut the Islamaphobic BS.

Israel does not wantonly massacre partying Palestinians.

[PurpleTree]

4 minutes ago, thenondualtankie said:

It's quite sickening how many people are suddenly fully on board with Israel, as if Hamas' attacks happened in a vacuum. Why do people think this way?

@Breakingthewall Cut the Islamaphobic BS.

Because they lost a lot of their moral high ground with such a vicious attack on defenseless, women children, elders, partygoers, raping, parading dead bodies etc

And (some/many) palestinians and supporters are cheering for the attacks around the world, handing out candy etc

as someone in this thread said who supports hamas supports the israeli right wing, it’s an eye for and eye until the world (or middle east) is blind now

[Bobby_2021]

Let us come to terms with this. Wars have happened throughout history. There will be winners and losers in war. This is the way the issue will resolve itself. Moral virtue signaling is useless in this scenario. Morality is the last thing they care about in this scenario. 

Moralistic judgements could and should be made in retrospect. In this complicated situation. Stick with the facts.

Try of compare and contrast with other facts if possible.

----------------

A possible ground invasion of Gaza is going to happen within the next 48 hours. They are building up their military for this.

[Guest Bazooka Jesus]

Great debate on the topic on TYT:

 

[Raze]

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

It is not necessary to invade Iran and force them to accept democracy, it is enough to destroy their industrial capacity. Let's see, do you think my speech is stupid? It is a country that promotes, from its government, the nuclear destruction of another, because...they don't like it. 

Iran has advocated for making the Middle East a nuclear weapon free zone, the US blocked it’s proposal because it would require inspecting Israel’s nuclear weapons. Multiple high level officials in the USA and Israel have called for bombing Iran multiple times. Even still Iran agrees to a nuclear deal but the US backed out. Calling for destruction of another country because they don’t like it is what is being done to Iran, they just respond in kind.

[Raze]

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

1 year is enough. Islamic countries always lose wars, very quickly, since their soul is lies. They could never resist like the Vietnamese or Koreans. they deflate immediately

The USA failed in both Iraq and Afghanistan after over 20 years, Iran is as large as both combined.

[Danioover9000]

@Leo Gura

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I doubt that's possible. This will be the worst urban warfare on the planet and it will radicalize a whole new generation of Islamist terrorists. Palestinians are backed into a corner and have no way out. They have no future but to become fighters. And for each one killed another one will be radicalized to kill.

   True. It's like this logical problem: In a room with 10 murderers, you come in a kill one. How many murderous remain?

   Most people can't answer that right, but Chat GPT 4 answer "10, because by murdering you become a murderer yourself." to paraphrase it's logic.

   Chat GPT get's how complicated and serious that puzzle is, and maybe how relative murderer/not murderer is, but apparently most people don't, hence 80 years of Israel/Palestine conflict. The oppressors/oppressed, You did it/no you did it, it goes on.

 

[PurpleTree]

These children behave like at a football match ( both sides)

 

[Raze]

51 minutes ago, Bazooka Jesus said:

Great debate on the topic on TYT:

I watched it live. He keeps bringing up Hama’s charter as justification. But Chomsky had a good debunking of that argument

Quote

NOAM CHOMSKY: Very simple. First of all, Hamas charter means practically nothing. The only people who pay attention to it are Israeli propagandists, who love it. It was a charter put together by a small group of people under siege, under attack in 1988. And it’s essentially meaningless. There are charters that mean something, but they’re not talked about. So, for example, the electoral program of Israel’s governing party, Likud, states explicitly that there can never be a Palestinian state west of the Jordan River. And they not only state it in their charter, that’s a call for the destruction of Palestine, explicit call for it. And they don’t only have it in their charter, you know, their electoral program, but they implement it. That’s quite different from the Hamas charter.

Also they’ve since changed it 

Quote

In May 2017, Hamas unveiled its new charter, in an attempt to moderate its image. The charter no longer calls for Israel's destruction, but still calls for liberation of Palestine and to 'confront the Zionist project'. It also confirms acceptance of the 1967 borders as the basis for establishing a Palestinian state as well as not being an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood.

 

[Something Funny]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

To recognize that 9/11 was a trick, designed to provoke and trap Americans into an over-reaction. To not fall into this trap and instead focus on shoring up defenses against terrorist attacks and using very targeted drone strikes on terrorist targets in the Middle East and hunting down Bid Laden and Al Queada via undercover CIA work. Also building alliances in the Middle East by providing them with humanitarian aid and not trying to exploit them or push an American agenda on them.

Think of how Captain Picard would have handled 9/11.

If I was the President on 9/11, I would have made a national speech in which I told the American people that we have been set up with an ingenious trap, explained the trap, and urged everyone that it is our patriotic duty as Americans not to fall into the trap of waging a war against the Middle East or over-reacting, as that would make us fools. Instead, since we are intelligent, we will carefully allocate our resources to technological solutions which will actually make us safer at home. And that Bin Laden would be captured and brought to justice via covert means since he is a sneaky devil. We must be more sneaky and clever than him. And above all else we must maintain our moral high-ground by never abusing any Muslims. Anyone who abuses Muslims is an unAmerican traitor because America is defined by our integrity. No amount of terrorist acts will get us to abandon our integrity. Bin Laden is welcome to blow up half of New York, but we will never compromise our integrity because we will never be devils. As Americans we will respond to all acts of violence with maturity, wisdom, and intelligence, not like wild raving apes.

A random question but do you think it's realistic for a normal person, without money / connections / crazy charisma to aspire to become a president. Or is it a waste of time?

What about politics in general, like becoming a parliament member or a city major. Do you think it's worth it.

I feel like there are a lot of wise, high integrity people, who potentially could become great leaders but they don't want to even bother because of how dirty politics are and because of how the whole system funtions.

[PurpleTree]

I think we’ll probably all have to have intercourse and many mixed offspring’s to achieve stability and world peace-ish

[Raze]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

To recognize that 9/11 was a trick, designed to provoke and trap Americans into an over-reaction. To not fall into this trap and instead focus on shoring up defenses against terrorist attacks and using very targeted drone strikes on terrorist targets in the Middle East and hunting down Bid Laden and Al Queada via undercover CIA work. Also building alliances in the Middle East by providing them with humanitarian aid and not trying to exploit them or push an American agenda on them.

Think of how Captain Picard would have handled 9/11.

If I was the President on 9/11, I would have made a national speech in which I told the American people that we have been set up with an ingenious trap, explained the trap, and urged everyone that it is our patriotic duty as Americans not to fall into the trap of waging a war against the Middle East or over-reacting, as that would make us fools. Instead, since we are intelligent, we will carefully allocate our resources to technological solutions which will actually make us safer at home. And that Bin Laden would be captured and brought to justice via covert means since he is a sneaky devil. We must be more sneaky and clever than him. And above all else we must maintain our moral high-ground by never abusing any Muslims. Anyone who abuses Muslims is an unAmerican traitor because America is defined by our integrity. No amount of terrorist acts will get us to abandon our integrity. Bin Laden is welcome to blow up half of New York, but we will never compromise our integrity because we will never be devils. As Americans we will respond to all acts of violence with maturity, wisdom, and intelligence, not like wild raving apes.

This wouldn’t work 

1. you’d be admitting you were at fault and failed to protect the USA, instantly the anger directed at Al Queda would be redirected at you. Prior to 9/11 George Bush reduced counter terrorism funding, hadn’t met with his head of counter terrorism, and ignored a warning that Al Queda planned to attack the US using planes. If that started being spread in the media directly after the attacks your administration would be done for.

2. At the time Osama Bin Laden was barricaded inside Afghanistan. If you weren’t going to war you’d have to negotiate with them. This would inspire anger about you even talking to them at all, and it’s very possible negotiations would fall through, at the time the taliban said they’d only hand over Osama Bin Laden for trial with a third party. The public would also feel continuing to let the taliban stay in power would be allowing future attacks.
 

3. Bringing up Muslims as a group right away would make people angry you’re asking for sympathy for a group they feel wasn’t primarily harmed. Your opponents would paint you as being more worried about racism than the victims of 9/11. George Bush only met with Muslim leaders and disavowed anti Muslim sentiment a year after when bigotryn and criticism  towards them was ramping up.

4. not going into Iraq would probably be the main improvement, however the Bush admin already wanted to invade them and this gave a great excuse. But that’s not a stage yellow thing, even stage blue or orange leaders wouldn’t do that based on ideology, it was a power play and long term goal for other reasons.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Raze

[Raze]

2 minutes ago, Nabd said:

That's why I never equate Christianity with Islam. Jesus reportedly told the Jews who were about to stone an adulteress something like "stone her if you are without sin" and also "don't try to remove the small speck from your brother's eye while there is a plank in your own eye".

That's why reformation like Martin Luther did with Christianity won't work on Islam. AFAIK Luther went back to the Bible and found many errors in translations or corrupted texts. I don't think that's possible in Islam because Muslims won't accept that they don't understand more than 60% of the Quran at best.

The Bible has a ton of violent passages. Martin Luther himself was a huge antisemite. Historically Christian’s killed millions in crusades, inquisitions, and mass genocide of native Americans. 
 

It’s really just overly simplistic to blame the situation on religion. Independent analysis of terrorist acts find almost all were primarily politically motivated. Different Muslim countries behave differently and despite the US being a Christian nation it’s slaughtered far more innocent Muslims than the reverse. The US is also implicated in funding the spread of more violent interpretations of Islam and extremist groups.

[Breakingthewall]

10 minutes ago, Nabd said:

That's why I never equate Christianity with Islam. Jesus reportedly told the Jews who were about to stone an adulteress something like "stone her if you are without sin" and also "don't try to remove the small speck from your brother's eye while there is a plank in your own eye".

3 hours ago, Tobia said:

@Leo Gura 

Exactly. This does not mean that Christians are good and Muslims bad, but that the basis of Christianity tends towards good. Obviously, later Christians have given in to their human nature and have been genocidal, like all humans, but Christianity has always been a counterweight towards the direction of peace. Jesus died crucified, humiliated. It is easier for a camel to enter through the eye of a needle, etc. Buddhism also has similar principles. On the other hand, Muhammad was a warlord, polygamist and pedophile, who married a 9-year-old girl and deflowered her at 11. A religion that worships a demon is the source of a dystopia called the Islamic world. a monument to human stupidity on the level of Nazism