New War In Israel / Gaza

[Raze]

 

[Scholar]

2 minutes ago, gambler said:

You do realize, once again, that the West Bank does not have anywhere near the amount of intelligence, technology, innovation, weaponry to seriously challenge their entire existence. You keep talking about last time but let's talk about the status quo for a change. The status quo is the continued subjugation and dehumanization of a people that will eventually lead to their ethnic removal from that region. It will be continued conflicts and lopsided slaughter of a people. What's happening now has been the status quo in Israel since the creation of that state. If the same thing happens after granting them a state, then that is no different than the status quo all along. And Israel can just take it back and call it a day.

You think the Gaza strip would have any of that if they were not supported by outside state actors?

 

You really need to look at how state actors fund military groups for their own interest, because this discussion might as well be happening in a parallel universe. The less technologically advnaced the strip is, the easier it will be for state actors to radicalize them and use them for their own purposes. How do you think power vacuums work?

You are still moralizing this. Yes, the lion will continue to hunt the gazelle, lest it die, and the gazelle has no other choice but to flee. This is how the world works, sometimes these types of situations are simply unresolvable. You should at least recognize the possibility of this, and that things are not nearly as simple from the perspective of the Israelis as you make it out to be, because obviously you are profoundly biased here.

 

And I understand why you would be biased. The palestinians are the victims of the Israelis, they are being victimized. From their perspecitve, Israel is stealing their land. And of course they will try to fight for their land to not allow that to happen.

But the reality is, both sides can be acting in their rational best interest while still being pitted against each other in an unfair manner. Like in the case of the lion and the gazelle, sometimes there simply is no resolution, no way to find harmony between both sides. And you should realize, considering how uniquily prolonged this conflict is, that it might be for those reasons, rather than the failure of moral character of the individual actors.

[Raze]

3 minutes ago, Scholar said:

And I understand why you would be biased. The palestinians are the victims of the Israelis, they are being victimized. From their perspecitve, Israel is stealing their land. And of course they will try to fight for their land to not allow that to happen.

But the reality is, both sides can be acting in their rational best interest while still being pitted against each other in an unfair manner. Like in the case of the lion and the gazelle, sometimes there simply is no resolution, no way to find harmony between both sides. And you should realize, considering how uniquily prolonged this conflict is, that it might be for those reasons, rather than the failure of moral character of the individual actors.

Except Israel isn’t acting in rational best interest either, they’ve only made their own safety worse by refusing to stop the occupation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AJlfW0g2rk

 

[Scholar]

Just now, Raze said:

Except Israel isn’t acting in rational best interest either, they’ve only made their own safety worse by refusing to stop the occupation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AJlfW0g2rk

 

Chomsky, oh my god, please.

[gambler]

Just now, Scholar said:

You think the Gaza strip would have any of that if they were not supported by outside state actors?

 

You really need to look at how state actors fund military groups for their own interest, because this discussion might as well be happening in a parallel universe. The less technologically advnaced the strip is, the easier it will be for state actors to radicalize them and use them for their own purposes. How do you think power vacuums work?

You are still moralizing this. Yes, the lion will continue to hunt the gazelle, lest it die, and the gazelle has no other choice but to flee. This is how the world works, sometimes these types of situations are simply unresolvable. You should at least recognize the possibility of this, and that things are not nearly as simple from the perspective of the Israelis as you make it out to be, because obviously you are profoundly biased here.

 

And I understand why you would be biased. The palestinians are the victims of the Israelis, they are being victimized. From their perspecitve, Israel is stealing their land. And of course they will try to fight for their land to not allow that to happen.

But the reality is, both sides can be acting in their rational best interest while still being pitted against each other in an unfair manner. Like in the case of the lion and the gazelle, sometimes there simply is no resolution, no way to find harmony between both sides. And you should realize, considering how uniquily prolonged this conflict is, that it might be for those reasons, rather than the failure of moral character of the individual actors.

Yea I consider all of this to be dogma. Quite frankly the international community needs to give the two state solution a shot and have Israel comply with it. Israelis signed up for this when they came to a foreign land. Unfortunately this is the price they have to pay, just like Palestinians had to pay a hefty price. Its on the international community to enforce this.

[Raze]

2 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Chomsky, oh my god, please.

>no argument

I accept your concession 

[Scholar]

4 minutes ago, gambler said:

Yea I consider all of this to be dogma. Quite frankly the international community needs to give the two state solution a shot and have Israel comply with it. Israelis signed up for this when they came to a foreign land. Unfortunately this is the price they have to pay, just like Palestinians had to pay a hefty price. Its on the international community to enforce this.

You live in fairy land, there is no such thing as international community enforcement, especially when a state views something as existentially necessary. But you are so uninterested in actually seeing things from the Israeli perspective that you cannot even realistically gage how they would react to such attempts of "enforcement".

It's like people who think the international community can force peace between Ukraine and Russia. You just live in fantasy land, it's not even worth to take what you say seriously at all.

 

5 minutes ago, Raze said:

>no argument

I accept your concession

I'm sorry, but when someone provides a youtube video of chomsky instead of providing their own arguments, they have automatically lost the argument. This was an attempt at arguing from authority, which obviously will not work because I don't take Chomsky seriously. If you want to make a point, make the argument yourself instead of demanding from me to watch some silly video which you put zero effort into so that I need to then reply to the nonsense that is being aspoused.

[Danioover9000]

@Raze

25 minutes ago, Raze said:

 

   That's terrible.

[gambler]

27 minutes ago, Scholar said:

You live in fairy land, there is no such thing as international community enforcement, especially when a state views something as existentially necessary. But you are so uninterested in actually seeing things from the Israeli perspective that you cannot even realistically gage how they would react to such attempts of "enforcement".

It's like people who think the international community can force peace between Ukraine and Russia. You just live in fantasy land, it's not even worth to take what you say seriously at all.

It's impossible to see the israeli perspective when you think a border with the west bank will wipe out Israel. I think it's you that lives in fantasy land.

Edited October 8, 2023 by gambler

[Scholar]

Quote

It's completely possible (and often the case) for multiple parties to be simultaneously understandable, yet wholely condemnable, when it comes to violent actions.

Israel should not be confining those in the Gaza strip to such horrible conditions. The settlements need to not only stop, but be withdrawn from much (if not all) of the West Bank. However, there is clearly a security risk posed to Israelis by those in Gaza. Hamas aren't attacking Israel because of the settlements and they'd just as soon kill every Jewish person if they had the chance to, it's literally part of their creed and the backbone to the foundation of Hamas.

It's understandable why those in Palestine would want to fight back. It's not acceptable to capture, torture, rape, murder and defile the corpses of civilians from Israel, though. Recording yourselves doing it and throwing it into the internet to show off your savagery to the world reveals far more intent than simply "freedom fighting." Anyone who says this is "based" or "revolutionary" is showing their true colors. 80 years ago they would be cheering on Jews being trained off to Auschwitz.

The deaths of Palestinians far outnumber the deaths of Israelis, for a variety of reasons, and it's fair to take that into account when weighing up the responsibilities of both sides to end these struggles. But remember, while Israel might dwarf Palestine on its own, Israel stands against a wave of enemies in the Middle East. If Palestinians stopped fighting, perhaps conditions would grow worse for them, or perhaps not. If Israel stops fighting, it will cease to exist, and all her citizens are likely to face the same treatment you've seen today in videos spammed across Twitter and the news today.

The violence is tragic, none of it should be celebrated, no one should be giddy for vengeance or continuous bloodshed. If this situation is to ever be resolved, far more sober minds need to prevail in these conversations, rather than the ideologically partisan ones that look to co-opt every tragedy around the world to further themselves.

 

[Leo Gura]

This whole situation is a very good object lesson in how bias and self-bias work, how deep these concepts run, and how consequential they are.

Try to notice the meta of how bias operates.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Raze]

https://chrishedges.substack.com/p/palestinians-speak-the-language-of

[integration journey]

Why is nobody talking about Idlib, Syria being bombed by Assad regime for the last 5 days ? Hundreds of causalites 

[Scholar]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

This whole situation is a very good object lesson in how bias and self-bias work, how deep these concepts run, and how consequential they are.

Try to notice the meta of how bias operates.

The reality in the end is, it is profoundly difficult to witness atrocities and recognize that many of them might genuinely be unavoidable. That there can be two sides who kill each other, and both justified from their own perspective.

It's much easier to pick one side and decide they are in the right, rather than recognizing why both sides act the way they do, and maybe even must act the way they do.

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Scholar said:

many of them might genuinely be unavoidable.

Yes, I address this in my video: Understanding War & Conflict

Edited October 8, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Scholar]

Quote

If the Palestinians stopped fighting, they would already have a country, and we'd have peace. This is not a counter-factual or a dream, this is fact.

In 2005, Israel ceded the Gaza Strip unilaterally, pulling out all it's citizens and military installations from the strip and leaving towns and agricultural infrastructure worth billions behind, for the Palestinians to use. Following that there was an election cycle, with Ehud Olmert winning in a landslide on platform of doing the exact same thing in the west bank. It had wall to wall support, even when Israel was attacked by Hezbollah in Lebanon, until Hamas started firing rockets from that ceded territory into Israel, during the war.

Do you understand? Israel has proved it is willing to cede territory for NOTHING, for free, with no peace accord and no promises or assurances of any kind, putting blind faith in the Palestinians, hoping that once free from the occupation they will respond in kind. Once done, the people of Israel voted en-messe for a follow up, and only once the Palestinians proved they are not worthy of that trust did Israel cancel this plan and started sieging Gaza.

At any point in the last 20 years the Palestinians could have just stopped fighting, stopped firing rockets, stopped trying to murder civilians - and Israel would have reacted as it did in the past, by opting for peace. It didn't happen - time and time again the Palestinians proved that the only thing standing between the Jews on Israel and the barbarism we saw yesterday is the occupation, that without it they would all be dead.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realignment_plan

 

[Scholar]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

I address this in my video: Understanding War & Conflict

I'll have to watch that, haven't kept up to date with the vids for the past years.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Scholar

[PurpleTree]

 

[Yimpa]

6 minutes ago, Scholar said:

many of them might genuinely be unavoidable.

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, I address this in my video: Understanding War & Conflict

 

Why is there no part 2?? 

[Leo Gura]