New War In Israel / Gaza

[Raze]

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

Why are Hamas and Palestinians so obsessed with this small piece of land? Probably for religious reasons, there are sacred places to Islam in Israel, like the Al Aqsa Mosque.

I think this situation between Israel and Palestine is complex and messed up, with both sides sharing responsibility. However, I do believe that Israel has more historical legitimacy for this land than the Palestinians. No one can negate this legitimacy.

Historically, Jews have faced persecution. Muslims, on the other hand, have a different approach, they may be intolerant of those who disagree with their religion. Islam has a history of conflicts and wars, with Muhammad himself believing in fighting against those who threatened Islam, even to the death.

Gaza is influenced by individuals with extreme Islamic ideologies since birth, harboring intense hatred for Jewish people. They believe that all Jews should be killed, akin to Nazi ideology but with less power. If they had more power, they might perpetrate a more terrible Holocaust against Jewish people than the actual Nazis did. With such enemies, I don't envy the Jewish people at all.

Israel is dealing with a dangerous and underdeveloped population, still carrying the collective trauma of the Holocaust and the wounds of anti-Semitism. This is why I don't expect Israel to act nobly towards Palestine if its survival is at stake. Yet, Israel do it's best to be noble as much as it can, given the circumstances. If it were the US, France, Britain, or any other country, chances are they would have much less tolerance towards Gaza and Palestine in general.

1) why are they obsessed? Because it’s their home they were kicked out of. They lived their for generations, saying “well there are other Muslim countries” doesn’t mean much to the individuals who live there and not elsewhere.

2) the historical situation of oppression doesn’t justify current behavior, currently Israel is keeping Palestinians in an apartheid state and concentration camp, just because the person oppressing you had ancestors that were oppressed and you had ancestors who did oppression, doesn’t make their current behavior justified. Israel is oppressing Palestinians, that can’t be justified by saying in the past Jews were oppressed, you are responsible for what you are doing.

3) Palestinians are in far more danger from Israel, Israel kills 20+ Palestinians for every Israeli that iskilled, Israel has destroyed Gaza and keeps them on a starvation diet in horrific living conditions. 97% of water sources in Gaza are contaminated and Israel controls the rest of the fresh water sources. Israel’s survival isn’t at stake because their state isn’t in danger of dissolution as they’ve only expanded, meanwhile Palestine is being ethnically cleansed by them and has slowly had their land taken until the current situation where millions are crammed in small shrinking space. Acting like they are crazy for lashing out when their actual existence is being destroyed is illogical.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Raze

[gambler]

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

33 minutes ago, Nabd said:

Palestinians are remnants of ancient Canaanites just like the Jews are, they literally share the same ancestors.

Land doesn't belong to anyone anywhere, if you are born somewhere, that's your home period.

 

Exactly this. All Southern Levantine groups (Pali/Jordanaian Christians/Muslims) derive an extremely significant amount of ancestry that ultimately traces right back to the southern levant.

I would actually say why is Israel so obsessed with an Israel that includes the occupied West Bank? They are not their ancestors. As a matter of fact they derive nearly half to slightly more of their ancestry to Europeans (you can fact check this by looking through population genetics papers). So they shouldn't feel the need to be so attached to it. Should people with 50% or lower Native American ancestry be trying to take back land in today's world through inhumane means? Most Israelis are not even religious, but secular. If we can say arabs can go to other arab countries, and muslims can leave this place for this other muslim land, then why can't secular Jews be content with living in their current secular countries? Why does their need to be a state for the Jewish people that includes the west bank, if they as a secular people have many secular states to call home on top of the land they have now? That's (secular people) their tribe. The idea that the Jews in the future will be holocausted again in Europe/North/South America is extremely out there given that minorities who people want to see exterminated from their western nations are Muslims.

Edited October 8, 2023 by gambler

[Scholar]

1 minute ago, gambler said:

Exactly this. All Southern Levantine groups (Pali/Jordanaian Christians/Muslims) derive an extremely significant amount of ancestry that ultimately traces right back to the southern levant.

I would actually say why is Israel so obsessed with an Israel that includes the occupied West Bank? They are not their ancestors. As a matter of fact they derive nearly half to slightly more of their ancestry to Europeans (you can fact check this by looking through population genetics papers). So they shouldn't feel the need to be so attached to it. Should people with 50% or lower Native American ancestry be trying to take back land in today's world through inhumane means? Most Israelis are not even religious, but secular. If we can say arabs can go to other arab countries, and muslims can leave this place for this other muslim land, then why can't secular Jews be content with living in their current secular countries? Why does their need to be a state for the Jewish people if they as a secular people have many secular states to call home? That's their tribe. The idea that the Jews in the future will be holocausted again is extremely out there given that minorities who people want to see exterminated from their western nations are Muslims.

The jewish had problems precisely because they didn't have a homeland for literally thousands of years, this is basic history. They weren't just mass murdered once, but multiple times in history. Of course from your perspective it's easy to say "Oh you don't need a country, just trust that you won't get holocausted again". The holocaust happened 80 years ago, and there is still anti-jewish sentiment all over the world. Just look at the US alone with Kanye West.

It shouldn't be too hard to understand their motivations for moving to Isreal. But now it's too late anyways. They won't just leave, that's a delusional pipe dream, and the reality is, state actors in their vicinity do want to destroy the jewish people, and they do support genocidal organizations like HAMAS.

[gambler]

Just now, Scholar said:

The jewish had problems precisely because they didn't have a homeland for literally thousands of years, this is basic history. They weren't just mass murdered once, but multiple times in history. Of course from your perspective it's easy to say "Oh you don't need a country, just trust that you won't get holocausted again". The holocaust happened 80 years ago, and there is still anti-jewish sentiment all over the world. Just look at the US alone with Kanye West.

It shouldn't be too hard to understand their motivations for moving to Isreal. But now it's too late anyways. They won't just leave, that's a delusional pipe dream, and the reality is, state actors in their vicinity do want to destroy the jewish people, and they do support genocidal organizations like HAMAS.

There is no delusional pipe dream of leaving. And I didn't mean it as you don't need a country. I meant why do they need a state that also includes the occupied west bank.

[gambler]

1 minute ago, Nabd said:

I see the point you are making. Genetically speaking no one can deny that modern day Levantines are descended from pre-Islam populations (Canaanites, Arameans/Syriacs, Ammorites). But ultimately this DNA is just nonsense. If you are born somehwere or lived somehwere for certain amount of years then you get full rights like in Europe or the US.

The problem in Palestine is not just religious or nationalistic, the whole creation of Israel and the Zionist movement is really suspicious. 

Why would Britain and Europeans actually send jews into the middle east? why create such a state right there? Jews lived in all over the Levant like other people and nothing compared to what is happening today used to happen back then.

To better understand the conflict we need to stop looking into this crap about religion and ethnicity.

I agree, genes for right to live in a land is nonsense. But I think it's only relevant to bring up because the obsession with the west bank is an obsession about ancestral rights. Like it is dependent on genetic ancestry.

[Scholar]

3 minutes ago, gambler said:

There is no delusional pipe dream of leaving. And I didn't mean it as you don't need a country. I meant why do they need a state that also includes the occupied west bank.

If the Israeli's leave the West Bank, what will immediately happen is that they will get HAMAS 2.0 funded by Iran and any actor that benefits from it. What do you think that will mean in the long term? More people will die, more wars will happen, because it is profoundly easy for state actors to use a discruntled stage red population and motivate them for a holy quest for Jerusalem. Especially considering they will continue to live in the stone ages indefinitely.

This will not just go away, even if you will give the palestinans a "fair" solution, of course they will not be satisfied considering they lost their entire homeland to the jews. The palestinians still have to even establish a proper stage blue identity. They will never just say "Oh yes, I guess we will allow the jews to have the majority of what used to be ours, even though they have our holy sites, even though other state actors will propagandize us into hating the jews and wanting to destroy them."

 

Remember, when Israel left Gaza, they got HAMAS for it.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Scholar

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

There are approximately 50 Muslim-majority countries in the world.

There is only one Jewish-majority country in the world.

Why are Hamas and Palestinians so obsessed with this small piece of land?

When you live in a house on some land, you will be obessed with it regardless of how many Muslim majority countries there are in the world. That is a mere abstraction while your house is your house.

Jews are also obsessed with that small land for similar fundamentalist reasons.

Muslims have all kinda mosques there.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Scholar]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

When you live in a house on some land, you will be obessed with it regardless of how many Muslim majority countries there are in the world. That is a mere abstraction while your house is your house.

Jews are also obsessed with that small land for similar fundamentalist reasons.

Muslims have all kinda mosques there.

Times used to be simpler, just kill your opponent and nobody will be left to complain. All those pesky morals getting in the way.

[Leo Gura]

I checked, US military aid to Israel is around $3.5 billion, which is about 20% of Israel's military budget.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Danioover9000]

@Scholar

8 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Times used to be simpler, just kill your opponent and nobody will be left to complain. All those pesky morals getting in the way.

   This'll be my closing statement for this thread, and I'm done with this thread as evidence above the level of discourse has dropped down significantly: I think there's little justification, ethically and morally, for 70 years, after the Yom Kippur war and Israel defending itself successfully then getting parts of Egypt and other lands, to then oppression and segregating Palestinians forcefully, overtime, into Gaza, Israel needs to humble itself, it needs to outgrow it's Zionism and stop implementing a 2 party ethnostate, and Israel needs to take the higher moral ground, of offering a peace solution first. In regards to HAMAs, we're not justifying their actions, but consider that HAMAs is part of that fallout of Israel Zionism, and part of the cost of lives it's willing to pay for land grapping, just like with imperialism and colonialism and Neoliberalism. HAMAs is part of the fallout of Ethnocentrism and religious nationalism from Israel. I hope there'll be a peaceful solution and Israel grows up, and owns it's part of creating and maintaining this conflict one day.

[Scholar]

13 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Scholar

   This'll be my closing statement for this thread, and I'm done with this thread as evidence above the level of discourse has dropped down significantly: I think there's little justification, ethically and morally, for 70 years, after the Yom Kippur war and Israel defending itself successfully then getting parts of Egypt and other lands, to then oppression and segregating Palestinians forcefully, overtime, into Gaza, Israel needs to humble itself, it needs to outgrow it's Zionism and stop implementing a 2 party ethnostate, and Israel needs to take the higher moral ground, of offering a peace solution first. In regards to HAMAs, we're not justifying their actions, but consider that HAMAs is part of that fallout of Israel Zionism, and part of the cost of lives it's willing to pay for land grapping, just like with imperialism and colonialism and Neoliberalism. HAMAs is part of the fallout of Ethnocentrism and religious nationalism from Israel. I hope there'll be a peaceful solution and Israel grows up, and owns it's part of creating and maintaining this conflict one day.

This is just ahistorical. HAMAS gained power in 2005 when Israel, under a liberal israeli regime, attempting to appease the palestinians, left the Gaza strip. You are naive to believe that the palestinians, and other state actors, will just stop once you give them some territory back, or if they will gain completey autonomy. What will happen is fundamentalist ideologies will fester and cause even more problems than there are now.

This is a difficult reality to face, but that's sadly how the world tends to work.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Scholar

[Sandhu]

 West particularly America is biased against Muslim forces and always assume them the problem Creater. They cant see that they cannot cleanse Palestinians or resistance forces. violence against violence inspires more violence. Direct lash out against these terrorists give their next generation a reason to keep the fight going.

[Sandhu]

4 minutes ago, Scholar said:

This is just ahistorical. HAMAS gained power in 2005 when Israel, under a liberal israeli regime, attempting to appease the palestinians, left the Gaza strip. You are naive to believe that the palestinians, and other state actors, will just stop once you give them some territory back, or if they will gain completey autonomy. What will happen is fundamentalist ideologies will fester and cause even more problems than there are now.

This is a difficult reality to face, but that's sadly how the world tends to work.

They are strongly motivated by the instinct of survival. Giving them their fair share of the land will definitely put them in a lower moral ground. Now, they are radicalizing people because they are actually oppressed.

[Nivsch]

2 hours ago, Lila9 said:

There are approximately 50 Muslim-majority countries in the world.

There is only one Jewish-majority country in the world.

Why are Hamas and Palestinians so obsessed with this small piece of land? Probably for religious reasons, there are sacred places to Islam in Israel, like the Al Aqsa Mosque.

I think this situation between Israel and Palestine is complex and messed up, with both sides sharing responsibility. However, I do believe that Israel has more historical legitimacy for this land than the Palestinians. No one can negate this legitimacy.

Historically, Jews have faced persecution. Muslims, on the other hand, have a different approach, they may be intolerant of those who disagree with their religion. Islam has a history of conflicts and wars, with Muhammad himself believing in fighting against those who threatened Islam, even to the death.

Gaza is influenced by individuals with extreme Islamic ideologies since birth, harboring intense hatred for Jewish people. They believe that all Jews should be killed, akin to Nazi ideology but with less power. If they had more power, they might perpetrate a more terrible Holocaust against Jewish people than the actual Nazis did. With such enemies, I don't envy the Jewish people at all.

Israel is dealing with a dangerous and underdeveloped population, still carrying the collective trauma of the Holocaust and the wounds of anti-Semitism. This is why I don't expect Israel to act nobly towards Palestine if its survival is at stake. Yet, Israel do it's best to be noble as much as it can, given the circumstances. If it were the US, France, Britain, or any other country, chances are they would have much less tolerance towards Gaza and Palestine in general.

Israel is not perfect, and there are underdeveloped radical right-wing individuals too. However, I can relate more to their point of view than to the radical Islam that fuels terrorists in Gaza.

Israel also exhibits more tolerance toward Arabs and Muslims than Muslims and Arabs have shown for Jewish people. Most people in Israel are willing to live with Arabs and Muslims in the same country as long as they are not a threat. However, I doubt that Muslims and Arabs have the same level of tolerance towards Jewish people.

I think that it's naive to negotiate peace with people who wants to remove you of the planet. Maybe in 100 years this would be possible, maybe then, when Gaza/Palestine would be controlled by more development and civilized leadership.

This is why I find Western thinking and and Westerns who support Palestine and demonize Israel, so odd. This is where the stage green thinking is more harmful and misleading than effective or practical. Because it can be too simplistic, black and white and lack in nuance.

Like with Sweden and their immigrants from Muslim countries. You can't be too nice with someone in too low developmental stage. With such people, you have to keep some bounderies and work hard for your right to exist.

 

❤️

[gambler]

7 minutes ago, Scholar said:

This is just ahistorical. HAMAS gained power in 2005 when Israel, under a liberal israeli regime, attempting to appease the palestinians, left the Gaza strip. You are naive to believe that the palestinians, and other state actors, will just stop once you give them some territory back, or if they will gain completey autonomy. What will happen is fundamentalist ideologies will fester and cause even more problems than there are now.

This is a difficult reality to face, but that's sadly how the world tends to work.

I mean you keep saying this. But Egypt made a peace treaty. Jordan made a peace treaty. Saudi Arabia wants a peace treaty. Syria has not invaded Israel since the 40s. This idea that we can't consider this option after trying the same things over and over again and we get no new results is suspicious. Why would you not consider this when the only other option is the continued dehumanization, subjugation, and lopsided slaughter of a people. If what you say will happen in the future in fact does happen, well Israel will just take back the west bank and call it a day. There's nothing more to lose in terms of considering this option since what you speak of possibly happening in the future is the status quo already. But there is something to be gained.

[Scholar]

Just now, Sandhu said:

 

They are strongly motivated by the instinct of survival. Giving them their fair share of the land will definitely put them in a lower moral ground. Now, they are radicalizing people because they are actually oppressed.

Sure, but they will be radicalizing people either way, that's what you are missing. In fact, the whole West Bank will become infested with resistance forces that will seek to destroy Israel.

This would most likely happen even without actors such as Iran being able to steer and manipulate the palestinians and fundamentalist organization. The situation is truly unsolvable from the perspective of the Israelis, and giving away an entire new piece of land in hopes to appear the palestinians, such as they did in Gaza and instantly got Hamas, is just no sane option to them.

 

You live in fair tale land where people who have suffered for multiple generations, and believe they are fundamentally oppressed and that they homeland was taken away from them, will just relent if you give them a little bit of the garbage land back that they will be unable to do nothing with. They will still exist in horrendous poverty. They won't be any happier, especially once they realize that getting their land back doesn't actually do shit for them.

[Scholar]

3 minutes ago, gambler said:

I mean you keep saying this. But Egypt made a peace treaty. Jordan made a peace treaty. Saudi Arabia wants a peace treaty.

Yes, and why do you think this terror attack happened? Why do you think Iran is so invested in HAMAS?

You are just arguing in a naively moralistic way that will not fly in anyone who is connected to actual reality. We aren't talk about some abstract notions here, to the Israeli's this is life and death, and of course they will steal some land here and there to ensure that.

You can complain as long as you want about how unfair it is that the lion must eat the gazelle, that won't change the flow of nature.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Scholar

[gambler]

Just now, Scholar said:

Sure, but they will be radicalizing people either way, that's what you are missing. In fact, the whole West Bank will become infested with resistance forces that will seek to destroy Israel.

This would most likely happen even without actors such as Iran being able to steer and manipulate the palestinians and fundamentalist organization. The situation is truly unsolvable from the perspective of the Israelis, and giving away an entire new piece of land in hopes to appear the palestinians, such as they did in Gaza and instantly got Hamas, is just no sane option to them.

 

You live in fair tale land where people who have suffered for multiple generations, and believe they are fundamentally oppressed and that they homeland was taken away from them, will just relent if you give them a little bit of the garbage land back that they will be unable to do nothing with. They will still exist in horrendous poverty. They won't be any happier, especially once they realize that getting their land back doesn't actually do shit for them.

You can be totally right or fear mongering to prevent a better solution that might work and would work.

[Scholar]

1 minute ago, gambler said:

You can be totally right or fear mongering to prevent a better solution that might work and would work.

True, but again, from the perspective of the Israelis there is no difference. In the end, they have to risk their entire existence on this "What could work.". Would you be willing to do that? Last time you did it, you got HAMAS, and both sides suffered as a result.

Now, you really are going to give them the West Bank, especially now after what HAMAS proved capable of? Don't be silly, this will not happen, human beings are way to pragmatic to allow for this to happen.

[gambler]

7 minutes ago, Scholar said:

True, but again, from the perspective of the Israelis there is no difference. In the end, they have to risk their entire existence on this "What could work.". Would you be willing to do that? Last time you did it, you got HAMAS, and both sides suffered as a result.

Now, you really are going to give them the West Bank, especially now after what HAMAS proved capable of? Don't be silly, this will not happen, human beings are way to pragmatic to allow for this to happen.

You do realize, once again, that the West Bank does not have anywhere near the amount of intelligence, technology, innovation, weaponry to seriously challenge their entire existence. You keep talking about last time but let's talk about the status quo for a change. The status quo is the continued subjugation and dehumanization of a people that will eventually lead to their ethnic removal from that region. It will be continued conflicts and lopsided slaughter of a people. What's happening now has been the status quo in Israel since the creation of that state. If the same thing happens after granting them a state, then that is no different than the status quo all along. And Israel can just take it back and call it a day.

Edited October 8, 2023 by gambler