New War In Israel / Gaza

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

The thing with sympathy is that you must be weak to get it and Israel won't allow that.

Nah, you don't have to be weak, you just need to hold the moral high ground.

For example, after 9/11 the US got lots of international sympathy, even though the US is the strongest military power. But after the foolish invasion of Iraq the US lost its moral high ground and lost a right to sympathy.

Israeli land grabbing is the moral equivalent of the US invading Iraq.

The proper thing to do is to defend your country without stealing or attacking others. Of course I'm not saying this is easy.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Scholar]

Just now, Vrubel said:

@Scholar Yes Israel is being kept massively in check by the US, people sem to overlook this

Because people are incredibly biased, I blame stage green.

[Danioover9000]

@Leo Gura

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

The problem is that Israelis specifically want THAT land, not any other. Because their Bible idolizes it.

   Their bible is called the Torah, which yes idolizes that specific land. So, on top of ethnocentric issues in Israel, we also have a religious nationalism as well, which also adds to the difference towards Palestinians because most Palestinians are followers of Islam.

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Scholar said:

But you are suggesting the usage of a very blunt tool.

Blunt tool? Not stealing land is a blunt tool? That's all we're asking.

Israel can still build up their military as much as they want and attack any militant groups.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Scholar]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It is possible to defend your house without also stealing other people's houses.

Wait a second! So, yo ucan defend your house without stealing other people's houses, but somehow when Russia does that to Ukraine and the Dombass region suddenly it is a rational  geopolitical goal? How does that even make sense.

Of course grabbing land is one of the way you ensure national security.

[Vrubel]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Nah, you don't have to be weak, you just need to hold the moral high ground.

For example, after 9/11 the US got lots of international sympathy, even though the US is the strongest military power. But after the foolish invasion of Iraq the US lost its moral high ground and lost a right to sympathy.

Israeli land grabbing is the moral equivalent of the US invading Iraq.

The proper thing to do is to defend your country without stealing or attacking others. Of course I'm not saying this is easy.

Israel will definitely lose much of its sympathy in the coming days as it will lash out with a heavy hand. But Israel has other things to worry about than sympathy.

 

[Scholar]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

Blunt tool? Not stealing land is a blunt tool? That's all we're asking.

I am saying stopping all aid if you don't meet our moral standards is a blunt diplomatic tool that will lead to more harm than good.

[Danioover9000]

@Scholar

9 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Sure, I just wouldn't be so sure about your approach.

Israel is at it's developmental stage, and I agree we should encourage fair treatment of palestinians. But you are suggesting the usage of a very blunt tool. Usually not being sensitive to the stage of other countries only leads to more suffering. Less support of Israel could mean more suffering for Israelis and Palestinians. So we have to be more mature than just project our moralistic ideals and then refuse to aid anyone who does not meet them.

   OMG, so a blunt tool to you is diplomatic solutions, of international countries and USA asking Israel to curb their ethnostate ethnocentrism religious nationalism a bit, slow down and stop land grabbing from the Palestinians for the past 70 years???

Edited October 8, 2023 by Danioover9000

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Wait a second! So, yo ucan defend your house without stealing other people's houses, but somehow when Russia does that to Ukraine and the Dombass region suddenly it is a rational  geopolitical goal? How does that even make sense.

Nobody supports Russian's grabbing land other than Russia.

Russia is in the wrong when it tries to steal land. So we put sanctions on them.

5 minutes ago, Scholar said:

I am saying stopping all aid if you don't meet our moral standards is a blunt diplomatic tool that will lead to more harm than good.

I don't think Israel needs US aid so much. Israel is prosperous enough to take care of themselves. US aid is like a cherry on top. And asshole behavior shouldn't get a cherry on top. Cherry on top is for good behavior.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Majed]

@Leo Gura what do you think about the ultra orthodox jews and their lifestyles ?

[Vrubel]

@Leo Gura I get your point about land grabbing but still Israel's shape is uniquely extremely thin, it needs some of that geographical depth to defend itself from attacks (like we are seeing today). The messianic drive to settle the West Bank is the (unconscious) understanding and addressing of this survival risk.  

Edited October 8, 2023 by Vrubel

[Scholar]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

Nobody supports Russian's grabbing land other than Russia.

Russia is in the wrong when it tries to steal land.

Because Russia is not surrounded by states that want to eradicate them and their entire race. The question is not whether they are wrong however, but whether it is a arbitrary or a genuine goal in terms of national security. Meaning, can you defend yourself if you do not hold certain territory?

 

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't think Israel needs US aid so much. Israel is prosperous enough to take care of themselves. US aid is like a cherry on top. And asshole behavior shouldn't get a cherry on top.

The problem is once you withdraw aid you lose negotation power completely, you lose influence completely. This is like, dipomacy 101. You want to have at least some influence, because it is better to nudge them a little bit in the right direction than have no influential power at all.

Diplomacy is very pragmatic, and it needs to be, so a lot of people usually demand a type of moral idealism in diplomacy when that is really not the appropriate place to do so. It would be different if it was a more egregious violation of rights.

 

But as we speak now, HAMAS is must be destroyed and Israel should be supported in that endeavor.

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Meaning, can you defend yourself if you do not hold certain territory?

So are you saying Israel should take all the Palestinian land?

What are the Palestinians supposed to do?

And if you suggest to wipe them out, then of course they will do terrorist attacks on you.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Vrubel]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

So are you saying Israel should take all the Palestinian land? How is that not just ethnic cleansing at that point?

What are the Palestinians supposed to do?

Israel's security trumps Palestinian loss of land. Palestinians lose land or Israel loses life. Thats the calculation. Palestinians can still farm much of the land and live on it but Israel has security control over it. 

Edited October 8, 2023 by Vrubel

[Scholar]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

So are you saying Israel should take all the Palestinian land? How is that not just ethnic cleansing at that point?

I don't view it from a moralistic sense. I think, realistically, this is too much of a security concern for them to uphold some moralistic ideals while they are basically in a constant state of war. Remember, we are talking about a population of less than 10 million people, Iran alone has 9x that population.

I think sometimes it is hard to grasp how outnumbered Israel is, and how easy a genuine situation could occur that would be the equivalent of the holocaust. You can't even stop paying for slaughterhouses because you don't want to feel less energetic and so forth, how are you having these types of standards for Israeli, who exist in a far worse context and do things far less aggregious than your own behaviour?

 

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

What are the Palestinians supposed to do?

 Obviously they need to try to adapt, it's not a fair situation for them. But I don't know if the Israeli's can afford empathy in the state they are in. Maybe they can and I am wrong in my assessment, I just wouldn't be so sure that they can, and project my own morality onto them.

 

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

And if you suggest to wipe them out, then of course they will do terrorist attacks on you.

They are not wiping them out, and HAMAS doesn't exist to protect palestinians. They are moving them out of their homelands, which is shitty, but in the end, you have to understand that there will be no solution to this situation, that would require wisdom on both sides which, due the very situation those sides find themselves in, will not be acquired.

 

Edited October 8, 2023 by Scholar

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Israel's security trumps Palestinian loss of land.

Haha, how unbiased of you.

4 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Palestinians lose land or Israel loses life.

Palestinians lose more lives than Israelis every year. Much more.

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Scholar said:

I think sometimes it is hard to grasp how outnumbered Israel is, and how easy a genuine situation could occur that would be the equivalent of the holocaust.

Israel is the strongest power in the region. And in the last few years Netanyahu has made good progress in making Arab allies in the region. If Israel stopped grabbing land they would be able to broker good alliances with some of the Arab states. So the notion of a Holocaust happening there is just not serious. That kind of paranoia is what leads to war.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Husseinisdoingfine]

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[Vrubel]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Holocaust happening is just not serious.

You would think so. If you're Jewish people just want you dead.
Like if Ukraine were to get overrun by the Russians in all their barbarity Ukraine would be "fine(ish)".
But if Israel is overrun, that's another Holocaust right there.
The Middle East is more volatile than 1930'e Europe. It's a "few million of us against a billion of them". 

Edited October 8, 2023 by Vrubel

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

It's a "few million of us against a billion of them".

Stealing Palestinian land will not change that ratio at all.

If they don't like being in the middle of a billion Muslims, then they picked the wrong part of the world to settle in.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Leo Gura