I struggle to get over my judgment of inflicting pain on others

[Razard86]

In my conversations with my friends, we have made a rule that we tell each other the bitter truth. The problem is in my life I have become adept at seeing through my own bullshit better and better but my friends have fallen behind. As such it is ever increasingly difficult for me to talk to them at times as they lie over and over about their relationships with others. I created a strategy of not sharing my opinion and just listening but every now and then they would ask me for my opinion, and sometimes I would slip and offer it when they don't ask it as well.

The sad bitter truth is majority of your friends and family play games with how they design what's true and not true and it becomes annoying for me personally when it becomes up to me to point this out. Some will say just ignore them, but I've tried it but my friend's value my opinion. Well just tell them what they want to hear some might say....you see that's what I am talking about you who say that don't understand how your mind works. When you tell people what they want to hear, you tell yourself what you want to hear which creates a psychology made of bullshit. Telling yourself what you want to hear is lying to save face or appease people, this means you will lie to yourself also to appease yourself and will trap the truth of how you feel about yourself and others behind bullshit.

THIS is the issue I have.....it is harder for me to have authentic relationships...when so many people are inauthentic....SIGH. I'm trying to cultivate a love for bullshit because this is really the only major challenge I have left in my life. Can I learn to love a lie equally to my love for truth. Can I get my ego to stop hating lies so much...and to see no difference between a lie and the truth. Because there is no difference....

Edited October 7, 2023 by Razard86

[Salvijus]

Strong victim vibes 

[josemar]

The answer is obvious... wake up harder 

[An young being]

9 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

In my conversations with my friends, we have made a rule that we tell each other the bitter truth. The problem is in my life I have become adept at seeing through my own bullshit better and better but my friends have fallen behind. 

That helps in making your own life better and not doing it makes your friends' lives miserable. If you are following the rule, but they don't, the rule is not necessary to be followed.

 

16 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

The sad bitter truth is majority of your friends and family play games with how they design what's true and not true and it becomes annoying for me personally when it becomes up to me to point this out.

There is no mistake in pointing it out, but if they don't change or feel offended, and you are annoyed because of that, there is no need to point it out.

21 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

Some will say just ignore them, but I've tried it but my friend's value my opinion. Well just tell them what they want to hear some might say....

If they don't change because of your opinion, they are not valuing it, they just want someone to support their biases, so that they can feel good about themselves.

32 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

When you tell people what they want to hear, you tell yourself what you want to hear which creates a psychology made of bullshit. Telling yourself what you want to hear is lying to save face or appease people, this means you will lie to yourself also to appease yourself and will trap the truth of how you feel about yourself and others behind bullshit.

You don't have to appease them, you can simply say I am not sure or I don't know what's right. Tell them that. They wouldn't want to hear such things either.

39 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

THIS is the issue I have.....it is harder for me to have authentic relationships...when so many people are inauthentic....SIGH. I'm trying to cultivate a love for bullshit because this is really the only major challenge I have left in my life. Can I learn to love a lie equally to my love for truth. Can I get my ego to stop hating lies so much...and to see no difference between a lie and the truth. Because there is no difference.

Being compassionate with your friends and yourself might help. Be compassionate for your friends' inability to be honest because of their ego and not because of their own will. Be compassionate with yourself, because you don't have to live the truth and get rid of ego, realising it itself makes wonders to your ego.

[Razard86]

6 minutes ago, An young being said:

That helps in making your own life better and not doing it makes your friends' lives miserable. If you are following the rule, but they don't, the rule is not necessary to be followed.

 

There is no mistake in pointing it out, but if they don't change or feel offended, and you are annoyed because of that, there is no need to point it out.

If they don't change because of your opinion, they are not valuing it, they just want someone to support their biases, so that they can feel good about themselves.

You don't have to appease them, you can simply say I am not sure or I don't know what's right. Tell them that. They wouldn't want to hear such things either.

Being compassionate with your friends and yourself might help. Be compassionate for your friends' inability to be honest because of their ego and not because of their own will. Be compassionate with yourself, because you don't have to live the truth and get rid of ego, realising it itself makes wonders to your ego.

1. Many things annoy us, avoiding doing something because it it annoys you is not a valid reason. If you design your life in such a way to avoid annoyances you will have a rude awakening that life does not care if you are annoyed. I get what you are saying but that is not a valid reason.  

2. Them wanting someone to support their biases is true of all of us on some level, so I am not different than them in this. For example my annoyance is a result of bias, as I want him to value honesty over a lie. So the only reason me and them have a conflict is due to bias which is the cause of all conflict. I'm not looking to remove their bias as I know they could care less. I'm trying to figure out how I can remove my bias against lies. I have hidden self-righteousness that comes out because I made honesty and integrity an identity so shedding that is an on-going problem. 

3. Saying I am not sure...is an attempt to appease them. You are telling me say something to avoid conflict, this is called people pleasing and is an attempt to appease them and me. Also this would be a lie, because if I do have an opinion then saying I am not sure is lying. Now saying I don't know what's right is something I could say...but if I feel I am right that would also be a lie. What I could say is "I don't feel comfortable giving my opinion because of our past experiences." That would be better.

[UnbornTao]

Being honest isn't the same as hurting others.

[An young being]

4 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

1. Many things annoy us, avoiding doing something because it it annoys you is not a valid reason. If you design your life in such a way to avoid annoyances you will have a rude awakening that life does not care if you are annoyed. I get what you are saying but that is not a valid reason.  

Instead of avoiding annoyance, it's better to be mindful of annoyance arising in mind and not be annoyed at all. But if you can't do that, it's better to avoid annoyance, especially with friends, if not with family.

2. Them wanting someone to support their biases is true of all of us on some level, so I am not different than them in this. For example my annoyance is a result of bias, as I want him to value honesty over a lie. So the only reason me and them have a conflict is due to bias which is the cause of all conflict. I'm not looking to remove their bias as I know they could care less. I'm trying to figure out how I can remove my bias against lies. I have hidden self-righteousness that comes out because I made honesty and integrity an identity so shedding that is an on-going problem. 

What you have can be considered as a positive bias, when compared with what you think your friends' bias is. If you want to be free of all biases, mindfulness is a good way, by observing and not reacting to biases.

3. Saying I am not sure...is an attempt to appease them. You are telling me say something to avoid conflict, this is called people pleasing and is an attempt to appease them and me. Also this would be a lie, because if I do have an opinion then saying I am not sure is lying. Now saying I don't know what's right is something I could say...but if I feel I am right that would also be a lie. What I could say is "I don't feel comfortable giving my opinion because of our past experiences." That would be better.

It's not to appease them, but an attempt to stop playing your friends' games and free up time to do something you love, hoping they may stop asking you opinions.

 

[An young being]

9 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

Being honest isn't the same as hurting others.

But it can hurt others.

[Razard86]

19 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

Being honest isn't the same as hurting others.

LOL if I tell a man his child just died that would hurt him. If I told a man his wife is cheating on him that will hurt him. If I catch a man in a lie and point it out that will hurt him. The list goes on.....this is not a complicated thing. The most dangerous thing and the most powerful thing is the truth. If you haven't discovered this...then you don't know truth.

The truth is a weapon, you have to wield it with discretion. 

Edited October 7, 2023 by Razard86

[vibv]

1 hour ago, Razard86 said:

The truth is a weapon, you have to wield it with discretion. 

Well said.

The truth is you don't want to tell them because you don't want to hurt them. Tell them that. That is literally the truth.

[An young being]

22 minutes ago, vibv said:

Well said.

The truth is you don't want to tell them because you don't want to hurt them. Tell them that. That is literally the truth.

That's a nice way to do it. They will ask you back due to curiosity to tell them the truth, then you can reveal it and the damage will be minimised.

[UnbornTao]

On 07/10/2023 at 9:55 AM, Razard86 said:

LOL if I tell a man his child just died that would hurt him. If I told a man his wife is cheating on him that will hurt him. If I catch a man in a lie and point it out that will hurt him. The list goes on.....this is not a complicated thing. The most dangerous thing and the most powerful thing is the truth. If you haven't discovered this...then you don't know truth.

The truth is a weapon, you have to wield it with discretion. 

Better to take the metaphors as simplistic rhetoric -- weapon, dangerous. Truth is whatever is the case. How could that be a weapon or dangerous? To whom?

You needn't tell someone that you think she is ugly and petty. It may also be true that you admire her and that you don't want to hurt others needlessly. Which one do you choose to say? Of course, you couldn't lie to her, saying you think she's beautiful and open. If asked, you'd have to tell her what you think or refuse the question.

There are different ways to tell the truth. As social animals, caution is advised, as you say. A relationship might not allow for extreme levels of honesty, so in that case it is not called for and may cause unnecessary problems, which you don't want to cause. Communication has to be appropriate to the situation.

Also, being honest isn't telling whatever is in your internal state at the moment, as that serves yourself rather than what's true. Notice we might not be clear on what underlies and motivates our experience, so we can become increasingly conscious and hence honest, about that. I might be mad at you but is that all? Why am I mad? I might discover hurt underlies the anger -- which is the case with anger. So I'd have to express the hurt rather than the anger.

Keep in mind what and why you are communicating.

Edited October 9, 2023 by UnbornTao

[Razard86]

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

You needn't tell someone that you think she is ugly and petty. It may also be true that you admire her and that you don't want to hurt others needlessly. Which one do you choose to say? Of course, I couldn't say that I think she is beautiful and open. If asked, I'd have to be sincere, or refuse the question. 

Yeah that is what I said earlier, I can just refuse the question. But the irony is some people are hurt and take it personally that you won't be open about how you feel. You see? What I am pointing to is...you are going to hurt people regardless. If you speak they get hurt, if you don't they get hurt. What I am pointing to is ego's get hurt because they are walking contradictions. If you were to give someone everything they want they will hate you. If you give them barely what they want they will hate you. You literally have to find the perfect balance, and part of that balance is pain. The problem is I am smart enough how to avoid being hurtful, but majority of people I communicate with are not so skillful. If you were to feed people their own medicine they would throw up lol. 

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

I'd avoid the rhetoric. Truth is the case, what's factual and is. Better not to take the metaphors -- weapon, dangerous -- seriously. About your examples, the pain is caused by them, you wouldn't be originating and adding to it, as long as your purpose is telling the truth.

You just ignored what I said and played ignorant. Everyone knows the truth is painful. If the truth wasn't painful then it wouldn't be hidden. Why does privacy exist? Because secrets are preferable to transparency. Why? Because the more people know about you the more they can use that information to put you down, and use it to control you. This is why governments, and its citizenry  hide information. We hide information because we do not trust each other. Because there is a lack of trust, lies are used to protect. As a result the truth becomes dangerous. So notice you have to lie to yourself and tell yourself the story you just did. But the truth is what you said is not true otherwise it would be seen in your direct experience.

 

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

There are different ways to tell the truth. As social animals, some caution is advised, as you say. A relationship might not allow for extreme levels of honesty. Communication has to be appropriate to the situation.

Notice you just said caution. Caution is the creator of lies. All lies, all secrets, stem from caution. That's my point. You play with the definition of the word true, your definition of the truth is INCONSISTENT and an inconsistency is a lie. Thus your truth is a lie. 

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

Also, being honest doesn't mean telling whatever comes first to mind as that originates from your internal state and serves yourself, not the truth. Notice we're not necessarily clear on what's at the bottom of our internal state; you can get increasingly honest about your experience. I might be angry at you, but is that all? I might discover there's hurt underlying the anger -- which is always the case with anger. You have to get clear on what and why you are communicating. The purpose for you would have to be telling the truth, not hurting others, even though that may occur and is up to them.

When did I say telling the truth was saying whatever comes to mind? If I said that....point that out. Also withholding information is called a "Lie of Omission." You know how governments will REDACT a document? So let me ask you....when is it a lie of omission? When are you redacting or censoring the information? Even worse....with your logic if something happens such as the government is secretly breaking the law using your logic I can just choose to "see but not see." So this makes my truth telling conditionally, which makes it inconsistent, which makes it a lie.

See the problem? It's not such a simple thing. 

[gettoefl]

everyone you meet is trying to save face and to look good

you included

how many time in the past week have you admitted your foibles, your failures, your foolishness ... i wager you saved face and omitted them

how many times have felt puffed up when someone has said something good about you or felt despondent when people misinterpret you

of course you wanna look good

it's human nature ... who is going to risk themselves look bad?

everyone communicates according to their level of consciousness

you are not my confidante you are not my confessor you are not my conscience

you have no right to the unvarnished truth from anyone

no matter if they claim otherwise or not

sending you lot of love x

 

[Razard86]

13 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

everyone you meet is trying to save face and to look good

you included

how many time in the past week have you admitted your foibles, your failures, your foolishness ... i wager you saved face and omitted them

how many times have felt puffed up when someone has said something good about you or felt despondent when people misinterpret you

of course you wanna look good

it's human nature ... who is going to risk themselves look bad?

everyone communicates according to their level of consciousness

you are not my confidante you are not my confessor you are not my conscience

you have no right to the unvarnished truth from anyone

no matter if they claim otherwise or not

sending you lot of love x

 

Love you too man, even though I didn't understand some of what you said.

[An young being]

11 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

you are not my confidante you are not my confessor you are not my conscience

you have no right to the unvarnished truth from anyone

no matter if they claim otherwise or not

Where do you get these sentences from? They sound authorative, like some person has wrote it in a book.

 

[gettoefl]

42 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

Love you too man, even though I didn't understand some of what you said.

haha sorry seems i get carried away like all the best of us do x

[gettoefl]

43 minutes ago, An young being said:

Where do you get these sentences from? They sound authorative, like some person has wrote it in a book.

 

source is the zestiest sauce right?

[Salvijus]

Helping others to see where they are being dishonest requires gentleness not brutality. You have to be intelligent enough to navigate through their ego defenses, through their denial, fear and anger, to be there as their friend and not an enemy and provide a safe space for them to admit what they have denied for maybe a very long time. And do all that in most gentle way possible. Just brutal honesty is often not effective. And it comes usually from impatiance and frustration rather then wisdom.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Salvijus

[Breakingthewall]

If you want me to tell you the truth, you seem quite unbalanced  with a great need to be "awake", which makes you see yourself as very special and great, very inconsistent in your speech, self-deceived into thinking that you have directly realized truths. that you have heard from Leo, with some sparks of true wisdom and rivers of narcissistic need of self-approval and standing out