(Trans)women in women sports

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Shadowraix said:

I don't imagine false equivalencies.

Then I can do the work:

Using the computer program is generally thought to give a significant systematic advantage. We don't know how much in this case, but still, just in principle, merely using it is considered unfair by most people. Likewise, being assigned male at birth is generally thought to give a significant systematic advantage. We don't know how much in each individual case, but still, just in principle, merely being assigned male at birth (and competing in a female competition) is considered unfair by most people.

Any thoughts?

Edited October 11, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Tanz]

@Shadowraix The shape of the pelvis is different in men than women.  A man's pelvis is pointed more inward and forward, this allows more power from the glutes.

Pretty much every sport relies on the glutes which is why when you look at black people for example, their anatomy gives them a significant advantage and they pretty much hold world records in sprinting.  There's no other area of the body that is as significant to performance.  

[Bobby_2021]

On 10/7/2023 at 4:40 AM, UnbornTao said:

I get the sense that we might be confusing what sex and gender are. Sex is biological and pretty much set in stone, gender is mostly a cultural invention with some grounding on physiology. People want to get free of traditional gender stereotypes -- what it means to be a "man" and a "woman".

1. Male and female are distinctions that refer to sex as a biological fact
2. Man and woman may refer to the more flexible, socially-constructed reality of gender

Why are sport competitions separated by sexes in the first place?

This is part of my sloppy and naive take on this topic for now.

Gender is the sex of class of organisms, it's a social construction as much as sex is.

Male and female refers to the sex of all animals.

Man and woman is the male and female sex of humans. 

Cows and bulls are male and female sex of cattle.

There is not that much of a difference between sex and gender. It refers to the same thing. Even I used to believe that sex and gender was fundamentally different. That's the lie purported by the gender ideology folks. Sex and biology is a social construct as much as gender is. Thet don't understand the nature of constructions. 

 

 

[UnbornTao]

We could say that biology constructs sex and a great deal of gender. Gender also seems to involve a lot of concept.

Anyway I'm not interested in this now.

[ZenAlex]

No one who's gone through male puberty should be able to compete in female sports.

It shouldn't be man vs women's sports it should be male vs female sports. It's the biology that matters not the identity.

I respect trans women as women but they are not female and thus shouldn't be able to compete in female sports.

 

[Adrian colby]

On 12/10/2023 at 3:27 AM, Tanz said:

@Shadowraix The shape of the pelvis is different in men than women.  A man's pelvis is pointed more inward and forward, this allows more power from the glutes.

Pretty much every sport relies on the glutes which is why when you look at black people for example, their anatomy gives them a significant advantage and they pretty much hold world records in sprinting.  There's no other area of the body that is as significant to performance.  

So we should ban ‘black’ women from female sports? Since when is a white woman the definition of all females. Would it not then be the case that a black womans pelvis falls into the range of a male in comparison to a white woman and considered a: an unfair advantage and b: not female. If a black womans anatomical structure differs from a white womans anatomical structure giving an unfair advantage are we not making the same argument using different labels? If that’s the case then we should also be arguing that black women cannot compete in white womens sports… that’s a slippery slope back into segregation. 
most trans now days are on blockers or HRT during or prior to puberty so their bone structure is going to be closer to female than anything else because it hasn’t had the opportunity to develop in a masculine direction. 
 

the opposite case would also have to be made with trans men competing in men’s sports if they were at an unfair disadvantage because of pelvis shape but I know from personal experience that is not true. Regardless of exposure to female hormones at puberty, my bone structure is in the male range. I’ve had multiple X-rays and dexa scans done while monitoring my bone density. It is common that trans can suffer bone density decline so must be monitored. I surprised my clinical team by developing increased density and skeletal structure within the male range. They were not expecting that but then again, at the time, most of their patients were old. I was the youngest in my country at the time.

[sinathegem]

On 10/13/2023 at 1:41 PM, Adrian colby said:

So we should ban ‘black’ women from female sports? Since when is a white woman the definition of all females. Would it not then be the case that a black womans pelvis falls into the range of a male in comparison to a white woman and considered a: an unfair advantage and b: not female. If a black womans anatomical structure differs from a white womans anatomical structure giving an unfair advantage are we not making the same argument using different labels? If that’s the case then we should also be arguing that black women cannot compete in white womens sports… that’s a slippery slope back into segregation. 
most trans now days are on blockers or HRT during or prior to puberty so their bone structure is going to be closer to female than anything else because it hasn’t had the opportunity to develop in a masculine direction. 

Having different anatomy than a white woman or a biological advantage over them does not make black women male. Black women are female and have female body parts. 

[Adrian colby]

On 18/10/2023 at 5:55 AM, sinathegem said:

Having different anatomy than a white woman or a biological advantage over them does not make black women male. Black women are female and have female body parts. 

You missed the point. I’m referring to the behavior of complaining about unfair advantage caused by ‘different’ anatomy. Remove the labels of sex, race etc you’re still participating in cognitive dissonance when someone argues pelvic structure and glutes as an unfair advantage and then mentions pelvic and glute structure in certain races giving unfair advantage…. If the argument is stopping people from participating due to ‘unfair advantage’, then……

I understand the problem from the point of view of trying to create competition within a defined category outside of which there is very clearly differentiation but this becomes problematic when reality slaps you in the face and shows it’s spectral nature. There are no sudden and clear lines, everything is gradiated.

a woman is a conceptual expression and expectation of behaviour, role and ability that is justified by its underlying biology but the underlying biology is a complex system that can appear both inside and outside a defined range of acceptance. Keep in mind it is being defined by humanity when its knowledge is imperfect and often based on assumptions. 
 

so far the study of people claiming and expressing as women but having male biological underpinnings have also been found to have female biological underpinnings so we’re looking at a biological system that contains both male and female attributes. The body itself has a neutral point beyond which it developes dimorphically. If it is kept in that neutral point and chemically developed into the sex that person is expressing, then it will physically take on that range. With strict guidelines in place about those ranges and a trans woman who meets that criteria, there is nothing to argue her being stopped in participating in a women’s sport. 
 

just to put it in some further context. Women have testosterone in their system. This is normal. Their bodies convert more of it over two days as a part of the progesterone\eostrogen\testosterone cycle. If they identify those days and utilise it to develope their bodies over time, they can come out in a muscle range closer to males using a male hormones. 
is it male? We all claim it is specifically male but it’s not. It’s part of a natural female cycle. 
men and women ( expressions) as defined and shoehorned into rigid categories by us, contain biological attributes of both male and female and every persons makeup is different from the next. Some people’s systems contain more congruent female attributes over their own male attributes where others may contain a more mixed set of attributes. 
 

I can only discern from the continued argument from the superficial labelling of only men and women, that allot of people simply haven’t bothered to look into how complex human sexual biology is. I stated it before and I’ll say it again. Our understanding of sexual biology is based on traditional assumptions but the more we study it, the more we find out it is not what we thought. When you deal with the diversity of reality you have to keep in the back of your mind that we may be wrong about allot of things we think we’re confident about

[Danioover9000]

   This us why we have to take Spiral dynamics, and developmental factors like cognitive and moral development, personality typing and traits, 9 stages of ego development, shadows selves and Archetypes(Carl Jung), and other lines of development in life and societal domains, and ideological indoctrination and beliefs from culture, family upbringing, social media, tv channels, radio, videos, newspapers, community, schooling and education, peer pressure and group thunk, and many more information intakes that informs our worldviews that are manufactured consent. This is why tier 2 cognition, and being good faith and good will is important:

   Develop into a mature mind, and learn to handle truth and differences in consciousness.

[Danioover9000]

15 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

   This us why we have to take Spiral dynamics, and developmental factors like cognitive and moral development, personality typing and traits, 9 stages of ego development, shadows selves and Archetypes(Carl Jung), and other lines of development in life and societal domains, and ideological indoctrination and beliefs from culture, family upbringing, social media, tv channels, radio, videos, newspapers, community, schooling and education, peer pressure and group thunk, and many more information intakes that informs our worldviews that are manufactured consent. This is why tier 2 cognition, and being good faith and good will is important:

   Develop into a mature mind, and learn to handle truth and differences in consciousness.

   A level headed take of the debate:

 

[numbersinarow]

You can have a self-consistent worldview where it's just a coincidence that they have an advantage, but at the same time not wanting to admit that they in fact do, shows that the person believes that giving credence to biology would refute the idea that trans women = women AKA it creates a powerful counter-argument out of something which can't even be reasonably denied.

[Danioover9000]

@numbersinarow

13 hours ago, numbersinarow said:

You can have a self-consistent worldview where it's just a coincidence that they have an advantage, but at the same time not wanting to admit that they in fact do, shows that the person believes that giving credence to biology would refute the idea that trans women = women AKA it creates a powerful counter-argument out of something which can't even be reasonably denied.

   That's partly true. The main issue is how does science determine, in a ratio, how much this transgenderism is group think ideology versus gender dysphoria, and to what extent social media and internet spaces influence younger minds into transgenderism?