(Trans)women in women sports

[Yimpa]

I honestly think sports in general is super gay to begin with.

I mean, c’mon. American Football is a bunch of dudes touching each other for hours on end.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Yimpa

[Carl-Richard]

I remember around 10 years ago, I was watching a program from my own country called "Mesternes Mester" ("The Master of Masters"), a competition where top athletes from different sports compete against each other in different challenges. I had a pretty strong reaction to finding out that they used different weights for men and women for some parts of the competition, even though they were all competing against each other.

Their intention was obviously to make it fair, but it still seemed unfair to systematically penalize the men in some of the challenges, because there are possibly other challenges were women might be better in some way which would not be corrected for. It just seemed to destroy the point of the competition, which was to show which of the athletes were the "best of the best".

Anyways, the first point is that the notion of fairness is fundamental to the concept of competition. If there are rules set, and you start messing with the rules, you destroy the competition. Secondly, you don't have to rigorously define what a "man" or "woman" is to determine what is fair. You can just judge by people's reactions (like 15 year old me).

And what do people generally think of as unfair in the context of transwomen in sports? Well, it's when somebody who is obviously physically stronger as the result of having been born male, enters a competition made for females. Again, you don't need a deep philosophical discussion about sex and gender to see that.

And it is about what people think. A competition is when people come together and agree on what is fair. So if you want to create a competition for big-brained, socially conscientious, trans-inclusive liberals, you can go do that. But that is not the world we're currently living in.

I'm not saying that is how the world ought to be. It's just how it is. Nevertheless, generally speaking, you'll destroy most people's idea of fair competition by letting transwomen compete in women's sports.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Adrian colby]

After contemplating the issue and not knowing directly or extensively what measures are in place for trans athletes I decided to find out. 
this might be of interest to some of you.

https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/2022-01/TUE Physician Guidelines_Transgender Athletes_Final (January 2022).pdf
 

to summarise: as some of the treatment transgender patients require ie hormone therapy, is banned in sports and trans patients require HRT after surgery to prevent bone density loss, they have an exemption provided the levels do not go outside the normal ranges of the gender category they are competing in. They are monitored regularly where other athletes are not. 
Trans female athletes are examined to decide if their structure falls within the range of female physiology. If they transitioned and received blockers before masculinisation then they are considered within a female range. If they masculinised before transitioning and the feminising HRT has not sufficiently feminised their structure then they are not permitted to compete. 
 

following on from this I decided to look at osome of these controversial figures and found some cases of male athletes masquerading as women in the hope of a medal glory, this quickly led to implementation of guidelines about normal ranges in each respective sex and is monitored frequently so the whole men competing in women’s sports is years old and nothing to do with trans women.

women with hyper androgen sensitivity syndrome or a type of intersex disorder began to fail eligibility examinations and got excluded leading to a spate of court cases showing there was no proof to justify the exclusion. Each time a new issue has cropped up it has been looked at and guideline issued with frequent monitoring. So what I can see is trans women who transitioned after male puberty tend to be excluded if they fall outside normal female ranges. There are fully trans only athletic games now started up in Asian countries who have recognised trans as a third sex for millennia. 
 

the most recent controversy was from an Indian athlete who came in fourth place lost to another Indian athlete who got the bronze medal. Days after the event she accused the woman of being transgender on social media and demanded people get behind her and support her to help get her medal back. It turns out the bronze medalist is 100% female and the other woman had a Karen meltdown cause she was a sore looser. 
 

looking at the guidelines there doesn’t seem to be any justification for excluding trans athletes if they adhere to the guidelines and fall within the ranges.so all the hype is being created by uneducated bigots from what I can see. Further to that the term transgender is an umbrella term that doesn’t just refer to people with biological gender incongruence but also non binary and other expressions.

having sat down and looked at 6 decades of research for and against, the biological/ genetic research certainly shows a tangible basis for these conditions although we don’t seem to fully understand what human sexual biology actually is. It’s a complex set of systems that work together eventually expressing as a gender/identity not a single physical feature that determines it. What we are presented with does not reflect our initial beliefs or assumptions of a rigid male/female only binary and what is presented in the court cases cannot support the exclusion of gender variant individuals from sports as long as they fall within the ranges as set out in the guidelines. 
 

I hazard to say that the increasing hostility coming from some people is a lack of ability to adapt to an ever changing world.

I certainly understand some of the complaints and the way that they are meant is perfectly valid but the instances in sports today don’t seem to exist in the way some people are complaining about it. If one instance of a valid complaint is found and put out in the media, they have a fantastic way of extrapolating it out from one instance to the facade of a global epidemic. 
 

https://www.thehindu.com/society/jumping-the-gender-hurdles/article18712766.ece/amp/

this is also an interesting article with changes in guidelines as they have become apparent. 

[sholomar]

I don't care either way. If women are fine with having males with higher testosterone levels best their world records in sporting events, more power to them. I'm totally neutral on this issue. The issue by dividing up sports into sexes was more about fairness. Females genetically are not built the same as males. Males tend to have a competitive advantage in many sports due to this, but hey, this is up to women to bring up as an issue if it bothers them.

The people who hate sports crowd tend to be the toxic ones though. Fostering a friendly competitive team spirit as a whole is going to be a big positive for any society. Maybe not the amount they get paid, but hey, that's capitalism for you. So you don't like American Football, or European Soccer. Get off your high horse. Many do, and they probably have better lives than you do with your negativity. Just saying.  I say this as a person who used to be like this, and I like to call my own ego out on it's own negativity.

On another note, if you want to see a "gay" sport, look at professional wrestling.   A bunch of guys in underwear feeling each other up, and yet I still enjoy watching it from time to time. AEW made it competitive and fun again, after years of WWE's suffocating monopoly. Thanks Tony Kahn.

Edited October 9, 2023 by sholomar

[Adrian colby]

45 minutes ago, sholomar said:

I don't care either way. If women are fine with having males with higher testosterone levels best their world records in sporting events, more power to them.

This is not the case. Read the athletics guidelines in relation to athletes with trans or gender related disorders. Individuals are frequently monitored and are assessed prior to being allowed to compete in the category. If they fall outside the normal range of what is female, they are not allowed to compete. 
this whole thing has been blown out of proportion by people who couldn’t bother to understand something with decades of research behind it. I’m not just talking about the study of trans or anything that comes under that category, I’m talking about the study of entire human sexual biology. 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Adrian colby
Typo

[Shadowraix]

On 10/7/2023 at 6:04 PM, How to be wise said:

It’s not really about you. It’s about the biological women who don’t want to compete with you in sports, and the people who want to use your biological pronouns rather than your preferred ones. It’s about the parents who don’t want to teach their children about transgenderism. 

"Biological women" and "transgenderism" are terms used by the right and especially fascists who take great issue with the existence of trans people in society up to the point of desiring extermination. "Transgenderism" in particular is a term used to pretend you can separate trans people from the thing that makes them trans. You can't. These are largely the people making the biggest fuss about the inclusion of trans people and hating that there are social consequences to not showing basic respect to trans individuals. Accountability for being an asshole is not something they like.

On 10/8/2023 at 3:05 AM, Something Funny said:

don't you think that it's kind of entitled to seriously complain about this sports issue?

As an an oppressed minority, no. I don't think its the most pressing issue on the list of problems, but I won't let someone who knows nothing about what its like to tell me how to feel on the subject.

On 10/8/2023 at 3:05 AM, Something Funny said:

It's one thing to fight for your rights to marriage, or having children, or for being treated with decency and respect. And another to complain that someone doesn't want to play football with you. Lets say trans women won't be allowed to play in women's leagues, why is that such a big deal?

Because it highlights an intrinsic problem in sex-based sports as only supporting a cisnormative view on things. I highlighted many of dynamics to this subject in one of my previous replies. I am a big advocate of a society that is inclusive to all minorities even ones that don't pertain to me.

On 10/8/2023 at 3:05 AM, Something Funny said:

You believe that you should be treated totally the same as ordinary women so you find that excluding you from female sports is offensive and not nice. Fine. But do you think that other people have to 100% play along with you beliefs and values? Do you think it is a realistic expectation? In you personal life, do you expect to have a 100% perfect relationship with every single person that you meet?

Living life as a trans person is being used to constant harassment & discrimination that can even be life threatening just for being trans. You are used and accustomed to dealing with people who absolutely despise you and believe all sorts of propaganda about you based on that attribute alone. Its not a matter of thinking people "have" to do things or setting expectations. Those do not get things done or change anything. What does is the fight for our rights and proper education to combat the fear mongering and misinformation spread about us.

On 10/8/2023 at 3:05 AM, Something Funny said:

Also, it's not even an issue of whether you are viewed as a real woman or not. You are legit physically stronger. So it's just a practical issue. If strength wise you are closer to men than to women, it's only fair that you play with men.

It's like a 120kg boxer complaining that he can't fight 50kg boxers. It has nothing to do with society not being inclusive of heavyweight boxers. It just makes the sport unfair.

I elaborated more on how this issue is more complex than you make it out to be in one of my previous post. Its not as simple as "men stronger women weaker" especially when it comes to trans individuals on HRT and individuals who never went through puberty expected of their sex in the first place. Especially when it comes to intersex individuals. If you want to make an actual argument for this, support more research on trans people and their athletic performance. Believe it or not the results we see is most trans people do not dominate sports and we've been allowed to compete for close to 2 decades now.

Thats weight class and a much more reasonable way to separate sports than just making broad assumptions based on sex. Mack Beggs is a trans man wrestler who is forced to compete on the womens team despite the insistence to compete on the mens team. Yet people aren't railing that this is unfair. Why?

Edited October 10, 2023 by Shadowraix

[Shadowraix]

@Adrian colby ding ding You hit the nail on the head for a lot of things.

Ironically our testosterone levels often tend to be lower than cis women.

We've been allowed to compete in the sports category that aligns with our gender identity since 2004 when the IOC allowed it. Suddenly its a hot debate when right wing parties found a new target.

The IOC guidelines solved this issue a long time ago. You can't justify excluding an entire demographic until there is robust science that there is a very consistent pattern of an unfair advantage. Science has not been able to produce this. If people want a more objective answer to this subject then they should be supporting more research on this.

[Schizophonia]

@Shadowraix Almost no one targets people who underwent hormonal treatment before puberty.
Male puberty definitely makes you stronger, even after chemical castration.
Testosterone is not the only anabolic hormone, e2 is also very anabolic.
I wouldn't be surprised if a number of trans women have supraphysiological e2 levels.

[Adrian colby]

3 hours ago, Shadowraix said:

@Adrian colby ding ding You hit the nail on the head for a lot of things.

 

I would know. I am one. I don’t identify as such though even though I technically come under the umbrella term. 

[Shadowraix]

11 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Almost no one targets people who underwent hormonal treatment before puberty.

Yet most efforts to try to push trans people out of sports categories they identify with push them out too. They are conveniently ignored just like how trans women are always targeted and trans men are often conveniently ignored in discourse about us.

11 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Male puberty definitely makes you stronger, even after chemical castration.

Lets not call it chemical castration. Thats another rhetoric piece fascists use to demonize us. HRT is fine.

You would be surprised just how much weaker we are with HRT. Saying we are 'stronger' after HRT is a non point regardless if its true or not. Trans bodies vary in athletic performance just like cis bodies. The issue is an unfair advantage. 

11 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Testosterone is not the only anabolic hormone, e2 is also very anabolic.
I wouldn't be surprised if a number of trans women have supraphysiological e2 levels.

Current guidelines is to keep our toestosterone <50 ng/dl and to keep our estradiol levels between 100 pg/ml - 200 pg/ml. Upper range with monotherapy, lower range with a T-blocker. Cis women reach higher levels than this.

[Schizophonia]

13 minutes ago, Shadowraix said:

 

Lets not call it chemical castration. Thats another rhetoric piece fascists use to demonize us. HRT is fine.

It's technically chemical castration, you suppress the activity of your gonads with exogenous hormones.
It's just technical.

13 minutes ago, Shadowraix said:

You would be surprised just how much weaker we are with HRT. Saying we are 'stronger' after HRT is a non point regardless if its true or not. Trans bodies vary in athletic performance just like cis bodies. The issue is an unfair advantage. 

Yes, testosterone is very anabolic.
I was just saying that with an equal, or even lower, endocrine profile, people who have undergone male puberty will still be stronger than average women because testosterone/DHT has definitive effects on the width/thickness of the frame, the density muscle, nitrogen retention etcetc.
Unless you have levels of hormone during puberty.

13 minutes ago, Shadowraix said:

Current guidelines is to keep our toestosterone <50 ng/dl and to keep our estradiol levels between 100 pg/ml - 200 pg/ml. Upper range with monotherapy, lower range with a T-blocker. Cis women reach higher levels than this.

I thought e2 was enough, are you on a gnRH antagonist?
Are you on DHEA, do you have adrenal problems?
Out of curiosity ?

[Hatfort]

34 minutes ago, Shadowraix said:

Trans bodies vary in athletic performance just like cis bodies.

Of course they do, as well as male and female bodies, but they are separated in sports because of the whole range difference. If they competed together, males would mostly win, because the top of their range is higher.

In a lower degree, but the performance ranges of cis compared to trans are also different, being higher for the trans group at least in females, that's why they should be in another category in sports. Also, all transitions are not equal, some start early in life others later, but you can't really establish where to put the line for competing. It could be an issue for the trans category too, but it would definitely be a problem in a trans and cis mixed category.

[Yimpa]

@Shadowraix random question, but what inspired you to get into self-actualization & how did you discover this forum? 

[Tanz]

There are anatomical differences that supersede hormones.  The bone structure of a man gives him an extreme advantage when it comes to power and acceleration.  

No amount of hormones can change that

[Schizophonia]

23 minutes ago, Tanz said:

There are anatomical differences that supersede hormones.  The bone structure of a man gives him an extreme advantage when it comes to power and acceleration.  

No amount of hormones can change that

When I went to the gym, even with my somewhat athletic physique and my 900ng/dl of testo, I was blown away on the bench press by guys because they had thicker wrists than me.
Frame does it all.

[Merkabah Star]

I agree with FINA.

Quote

 Swimmings world governing body FINA voted to restrict the participation of transgender athletes in elite women's competitions and create a working group to establish an 'open' category for them in some events as part of its new policy.

The new policy states that male-to-female transgender swimmers (transgender women) are eligible to compete in women's competitions only if "they can establish to FINA's comfortable satisfaction that they have not experienced any part of male puberty beyond Tanner Stage 2 (of puberty) or before age 12, whichever is later".

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/biology-trumps-gender-fifa-world-athletics-review-transgender-rules-after-swimmings-change/ux6wy849g

It’s not fair to women. 
 

 

 

[Carl-Richard]

5 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

When I went to the gym, even with my somewhat athletic physique and my 900ng/dl of testo, I was blown away on the bench press by guys because they had thicker wrists than me.
Frame does it all.

There are also different ways of training in the gym that arguably impacts testosterone. Have you tried doing every set with highest intensity possible, i.e. using heavy weights and blasting the reps as fast as possible while not thinking much about form, and limiting resting times to 90 seconds? You'll feel like an absolute animal compared to the slow and controlled bodybuilding approach. I used to do the former, but I struggled with muscle imbalances, so I had to start doing slow and controlled.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Shadowraix]

7 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

It's technically chemical castration, you suppress the activity of your gonads with exogenous hormones.
It's just technical.

Its called HRT. That is the actual medical name for this treatment.

7 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Yes, testosterone is very anabolic.
I was just saying that with an equal, or even lower, endocrine profile, people who have undergone male puberty will still be stronger than average women because testosterone/DHT has definitive effects on the width/thickness of the frame, the density muscle, nitrogen retention etcetc.
Unless you have levels of hormone during puberty.

 

7 hours ago, Hatfort said:

Of course they do, as well as male and female bodies, but they are separated in sports because of the whole range difference. If they competed together, males would mostly win, because the top of their range is higher.

In a lower degree, but the performance ranges of cis compared to trans are also different, being higher for the trans group at least in females, that's why they should be in another category in sports. Also, all transitions are not equal, some start early in life others later, but you can't really establish where to put the line for competing. It could be an issue for the trans category too, but it would definitely be a problem in a trans and cis mixed category.

 

5 hours ago, Tanz said:

There are anatomical differences that supersede hormones.  The bone structure of a man gives him an extreme advantage when it comes to power and acceleration.  

No amount of hormones can change that

Addressing all 3 of these at once. Despite these claims most trans women lose in sports. There are so few trans athletes another sports category wouldn't even work. We've been allowed to compete since 2004. Also having less muscle driving a larger frame would be a disadvantage. Cite anatomical differences based on averages all you want but its moot unless you can prove a consistent unfair advantage in real world performance where trans individuals fall outside the performance range of cis individuals. We typically don't. We don't dominate. Trans individuals are already regulated in sports. There are guidelines for this stuff.

7 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

I thought e2 was enough, are you on a gnRH antagonist?
Are you on DHEA, do you have adrenal problems?
Out of curiosity

For E2 to properly suppress T by itself you usually need to reach 200pg/ml and there are a fraction of individuals who still can't achieve proper suppression. Having a T-blocker is common. Spironolactone is the most common in the US. Cyproterone Acetate in Europe. Bicalumatide is arguably the best since it blocks the actual receptors instead of T production and has a better safety profile but its use in trans healthcare isn't as common. I'm currently on a transdermal application of E and Cypro temporarily but plan to go back to monotherapy with gel.

No DHEA and no adrenal problems.

7 hours ago, Yimpa said:

random question, but what inspired you to get into self-actualization & how did you discover this forum? 

A psychedelic trip. A friend showed me Leo's content.

[Carl-Richard]

17 minutes ago, Shadowraix said:

Cite anatomical differences based on averages all you want but its moot unless you can prove a consistent unfair advantage in real world performance where trans individuals fall outside the performance range of cis individuals. We typically don't. We don't dominate.

Imagine a chess player who gets caught using a computer program which most likely artificially inflated their Elo rating, but they never "dominated" the sport. Would that be fair?

Edited October 11, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Shadowraix]

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

Imagine a chess player who gets caught using a computer program which most likely artificially inflated their Elo rating, but they never "dominated" the sport. Would that be fair?

I don't imagine false equivalencies.