(Trans)women in women sports

[Shadowraix]

27 minutes ago, How to be wise said:

No one is debating your existence. What’s being debated is how you should be classified in official documents, in sports, and whether people are allowed to refer to you as a man. 

"I'm not debating your existence, Just how you are allowed to exist in society"

Such conversations often take place without the people actually involved being a part of the conversation

Such conversations often have input from people not very well versed on the subject of trans issues.

Such conversations rarely took place until right-wing platforms made it their whole personality to come after us.

Such conversations often hyper focus on trans women when trans men and non-binary folk are part of the conversation too.

[PurpleTree]

51 minutes ago, Shadowraix said:

Such conversations often take place without the people actually involved being a part of the conversation

Well we‘re glad to have you in the discussion! ?

 

would be good if some non-trans women also would give their opinions.

[Danioover9000]

@Shadowraix  Sorry, I was responding to @UnbornTao's post and arguing towards the user, I was not targeting or attack you per say, just towards @UnbornTao and towards @Roy if he's up to replying to me.

[Roy]

4 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

No, trans people, religious people, and most of society are not lost

I beg to differ! I find it appallingly obvious that the majority of human beings are just lost animals that have no fucking idea what's going on in reality.

Life is an emergency from birth to death and we are all just scrambling to make sense of it and running around like chickens with their heads cut off.

Make a bunch of money! Change my gender! Win political power! Live in a cabin! Build a spaceship! Meditate in a cave for 40 years!

It's one big free for all 

 

[Roy]

4 hours ago, How to be wise said:

whether people are allowed to refer to you as a man. 

People are allowed to refer to anything however they want. What do you think this is, China?

[ryandesreu]

Why not introduce a trans male and a trans female league? If a man identifies as a woman that's fine, but when competing in sports, for fairness, that person would fall under the category of trans woman and would be competing with other trans women. It's just a thought. 

[Roy]

12 minutes ago, ryandesreu said:

Why not introduce a trans male and a trans female league? If a man identifies as a woman that's fine, but when competing in sports, for fairness, that person would fall under the category of trans woman and would be competing with other trans women. It's just a thought. 

Or they could just compete in men's leagues, which are already open and inclusive and don't discriminate on anything but skill.

Women are legally allowed to compete in the NBA, NFL, and NHL (but not vice versa for clear reasons), given they are good enough to participate and get drafted.

There is no reason a trans women shouldn't feel compelled to play in the men's leagues in the first place when they know they are physically male. Nobody is fucking fooled lol.

It's just a narcissistic tendency and victim mindset they have to assimilate all available attention to them at all times.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Roy

[Danioover9000]

@Roy

31 minutes ago, Roy said:

I beg to differ! I find it appallingly obvious that the majority of human beings are just lost animals that have no fucking idea what's going on in reality.

Life is an emergency from birth to death and we are all just scrambling to make sense of it and running around like chickens with their heads cut off.

Make a bunch of money! Change my gender! Win political power! Live in a cabin! Build a spaceship! Meditate in a cave for 40 years!

It's one big free for all 

 

   If it's true that you find it appallingly obvious that the majority of human beings are just lost animals that have no fucking idea what's going on in reality, then we would have multiple asylums and mental hospitals and farm industries filled with millions of human beings behaving like lost animals, where the human farms milk the animalistic human udders for dairy goodness, human meat for more fats and protein, give coerced or forced breeding for optimum selective breeding for better milk or batter meats, recorded in a device called pornography for further domestication of human males and females and to further indoctrinate their offspring for horniness, and when some outlive their usefulness they are sent to many of the mental asylums and hooked into machines that drain whatever remains of their consciousness, right?

   So, if we're all like lost chickens with no heads, then is this you projecting your misanthropy and anti natalism onto people?

   Make a bunch of money, change my gender, win political power, live in a cabin, build a spaceship, meditate in a cave for 40 years, it's one big free for all...are you okay? Having a mental hallucination episode? Do you need a hug?

   

 

[Roy]

10 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

So, if we're all like lost chickens with no heads, then is this you projecting your misanthropy and anti natalism onto people?

I didn't say I disliked humanity. My comment was outlining how it's obvious that human behavior is bizarre and diverse.

It's a straight forward statement and opinion. You don't need to extrapolate my beliefs or mental health from it.

Who are you, my fucking therapist?

[Adrian colby]

A woman walked into an emergency department with abdominal pains and they subsequently discovered she had cancer stemming from testicular cells even though she had no testicles and was born fully female ( at least that is what she, her parents and everyone in her life thought). After a number of tests they discovered she had a Y chromosome. The question perplexed the doctors, if she had a Y chromosome, why didn’t she develop into a male?

a slight mutation in the androgen receptor gene is enough to throw a persons sexual biology over the other side and it doesn’t just happen fully. There’s an entire spectrum to those mutations giving rise to the myriad of sexual variation in our species. We are under the automatic assumption that a human comes in a rigid binary of male and female but we have originally defined that off what we see externally when the case may be that we don’t actually know what human sexual biology is or what it’s normal state or states may be. There are billions of people on this planet who automatically assume they are the sex and gender they are when no one has ever bothered to test themselves to see if that is really true.

I was born with gonadal dis genesis and raised female. Unfortunately they got it wrong. My gender is male and has been so since childhood and persistent throughout all my treatment. They tried to council me into a female gender which didn’t work. During my ‘correct’ treatment I participated in a study in Austria in 2014 that uncovered I had a genetic mutation in cyp17. Mutations in this gene tend toward disrupting sex hormones and growth in childhood development. The mutation in particular that was found in me is normally only found in males. 
 

( people like myself who are posthumously studied also show neurological structures in the male range which one would assume is why I express a gender identity that is male.)
 

so the reality is that while I express myself as male my body contains the biological components of both male and female despite having been born not fully formed but formed enough not to incurr any chronic medical problems. None of it has any effect or standing in my life. No one knows about my condition and I’ve been physically and indentified as male longer than I’ve been known as anything else.

I cannot produce my own hormones so I have to take testosterone for the rest of my life. It would be an awful kick in the stomach if I had dreamed of being an athlete since childhood as I wouldn’t be allowed to compete because I’m technically on steroids….

back to the woman I mentioned above. Having all the blueprint in her DNA that should have resulted in a male, she was clearly, socially, sexually and physically female but according to some people’s arguments she should be classified as a man because of a Y chromosome when her life experience and the experience of everyone in her life demonstrate that couldn’t possibly be true.

a person who is born with a gender disorder is somewhere in a middle ground on a spectrum and trying to fit into the expectation of a social role of which none exist to reflect their status. Whatever way the neurology of that person has developed is the way they express their gender. The neurology is the biological that overrides the rest of the body because a human is predominantly a psychosocial being.

 

most trans women ( more recently due to the accessibility to treatment) have had hormone blockers at puberty and have not developed masculine bone or muscle structures. Taking estrogen HRT would further prevent that development. This would be the norm so the testosterone argument seems a bit grasping at nothing. Also going back to my own sentiment about dreaming to be an athlete, if a girl who had lived as a female, had blockers and never developed masculine structures, had surgery, and took estrogen HRT… that person as an adult would never have been exposed to testosterone levels equivelent to a man and would have lived their entire adult life physically and mentally female. If they had always want to be an athlete… there’s nothing there that would give them an advantage over any other woman.

 

most people arguing about this haven’t got a clue what sexual biology is ( never mind the complexities of conceptual gender roles)

here’s one for the men: if you had even a slight mutation in your AR gene, you would be a fully blown woman! Your Y chromosome is a pretty weak excuse for justifying masculinity.

there are more male specific genes than what are found on the Y chromosome so calling the Y SRY or sex related Y is a bit old hat. 
a female can be neurologically full blown male with a mutation on the cyp17 gene. 
 

the question for everyone is if they can come to terms with the wide variety of biology and get their head around the neurological basis for identity expression and realise we’re not dealing with rigid definitions here that don’t translate into reality. 
 

the truth is that I’m not a man or a woman. I’m consciousness playing a temporary character while I learn the game of how to relate to self and other and the characters afflictions are meerly a part of an experience to learn from. When you find yourself being excluded and pushed outside of conventional social structures, it’s a lot easier to wake up out of conceptualisation. 
 

that’s not a mental illness. That’s a level of clarity that most will never have. 

Edited October 7, 2023 by Adrian colby
Predictive text assumed the wrong word

[UnbornTao]

@Roy You sound angry. 

 

[Danioover9000]

@Roy Since you cherry picked my post responding to this, original post is below.

27 minutes ago, Roy said:

So, if we're all like lost chickens with no heads, then is this you projecting your misanthropy and anti natalism onto people?

27 minutes ago, Roy said:

I didn't say I disliked humanity. My comment was outlining how it's obvious that human behavior is bizarre and diverse.

It's a straight forward statement and opinion. You don't need to extrapolate my beliefs or mental health from it.

Who are you, my fucking therapist?

   Sorry, I'm not a sexologist or a therapist that specializes in fucking, but if you need one, there's plenty on the internet. They're out there if you're lonely. Didn't mean to be mean and trigger you.

   So I'll take it that you don't like animal human farms?

38 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Roy

   If it's true that you find it appallingly obvious that the majority of human beings are just lost animals that have no fucking idea what's going on in reality, then we would have multiple asylums and mental hospitals and farm industries filled with millions of human beings behaving like lost animals, where the human farms milk the animalistic human udders for dairy goodness, human meat for more fats and protein, give coerced or forced breeding for optimum selective breeding for better milk or batter meats, recorded in a device called pornography for further domestication of human males and females and to further indoctrinate their offspring for horniness, and when some outlive their usefulness they are sent to many of the mental asylums and hooked into machines that drain whatever remains of their consciousness, right?

   So, if we're all like lost chickens with no heads, then is this you projecting your misanthropy and anti natalism onto people?

   Make a bunch of money, change my gender, win political power, live in a cabin, build a spaceship, meditate in a cave for 40 years, it's one big free for all...are you okay? Having a mental hallucination episode? Do you need a hug?

   

 

   Back to main topic of trans genders, how do we include them into combat sports and make it fair?

Edited October 7, 2023 by Danioover9000

[How to be wise]

5 hours ago, Shadowraix said:

"I'm not debating your existence, Just how you are allowed to exist in society"

Such conversations often take place without the people actually involved being a part of the conversation

Such conversations often have input from people not very well versed on the subject of trans issues.

Such conversations rarely took place until right-wing platforms made it their whole personality to come after us.

Such conversations often hyper focus on trans women when trans men and non-binary folk are part of the conversation too.

It’s not really about you. It’s about the biological women who don’t want to compete with you in sports, and the people who want to use your biological pronouns rather than your preferred ones. It’s about the parents who don’t want to teach their children about transgenderism. 

 

1 hour ago, Roy said:

People are allowed to refer to anything however they want. What do you think this is, China?

People’s entire careers have been destroyed because of using original pronouns. 

[Danioover9000]

@UnbornTao

18 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

@Roy You sound angry. 

 

   It can't just be me right? Is it because of depression season, or is it because we're entering the fall/autumn season, which in western astrology and secret sacred occult places signifies the water sign, which signifies emotions right? So all westerners are angsty? Is it just because of the full moon?

[UnbornTao]

54 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@UnbornTao

   It can't just be me right? Is it because of depression season, or is it because we're entering the fall/autumn season, which in western astrology and secret sacred occult places signifies the water sign, which signifies emotions right? So all westerners are angsty? Is it just because of the full moon?

Don't know. Drop all that stuff and take an experiential look into anger yourself.

Edited October 7, 2023 by UnbornTao

[Danioover9000]

@UnbornTao

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

Don't know. Drop all that stuff and take an experiential look into anger yourself.

   Not a fan of Halloween?

[Something Funny]

@Shadowraix don't you think that it's kind of entitled to seriously complain about this sports issue?

It's one thing to fight for your rights to marriage, or having children, or for being treated with decency and respect. And another to complain that someone doesn't want to play football with you. Lets say trans women won't be allowed to play in women's leagues, why is that such a big deal?

You believe that you should be treated totally the same as ordinary women so you find that excluding you from female sports is offensive and not nice. Fine. But do you think that other people have to 100% play along with you beliefs and values? Do you think it is a realistic expectation? In you personal life, do you expect to have a 100% perfect relationship with every single person that you meet?

How is this different from christians or muslims wanting to push their beliefs on everyone else. Do you think that as a society, where a lot of people believe in a lot of different things, some compromises should be made?

Also, it's not even an issue of whether you are viewed as a real woman or not. You are legit physically stronger. So it's just a practical issue. If strength wise you are closer to men than to women, it's only fair that you play with men.

It's like a 120kg boxer complaining that he can't fight 50kg boxers. It has nothing to do with society not being inclusive of heavyweight boxers. It just makes the sport unfair.

[Epikur]

On 6.10.2023 at 4:15 PM, PurpleTree said:

I think if let’s say men right wingers wanted to get trans women out of womens sports

they should try reverse psychology and start cheering them on and become their biggest fans

Maybe men care more about biological female sports than females. It would be interesting to watch transmen taking over women sports. Men should try to stay silent or become fans of the winning transmen. I would like to see how women will react. That would be a new element in the gender dialectic that might bring something new.

[UnbornTao]

On 08/10/2023 at 1:02 AM, Danioover9000 said:

@UnbornTao

   Not a fan of Halloween?

I like it but what does that have to do with anger? 

If you want, look into anger itself before attributing external, superficial causes to it.

Anyway, let's not derail the thread.

Edited October 9, 2023 by UnbornTao

[Hatfort]

On 7/10/2023 at 10:57 PM, ryandesreu said:

Why not introduce a trans male and a trans female league? If a man identifies as a woman that's fine, but when competing in sports, for fairness, that person would fall under the category of trans woman and would be competing with other trans women. It's just a thought. 

I think it's an okay idea, at least for individual sports, they could compete with each other.

For team sports, it's probably not possible.