(Trans)women in women sports

[PurpleTree]

Do you have an opinion?

honestly i don‘t really care, imo it‘s up to the non trans woman to decide if they want trans women in sports or not.

But i found this youtube comment under the video funny

“I love being male, we win in men‘s sports, we win in women‘s sports, we even won woman of the year! We just win at everything.“

[Danioover9000]

@PurpleTree

36 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Do you have an opinion?

honestly i don‘t really care, imo it‘s up to the non trans woman to decide if they want trans women in sports or not.

But i found this youtube comment under the video funny

“I love being male, we win in men‘s sports, we win in women‘s sports, we even won woman of the year! We just win at everything.“

   The patriarchy at it again, why can't men leave women alone in sports?

   A few easy fixes for these sports companies, is to make a trans category from men or women. Or to modify the parameters of each division, based on the body mass index and muscle mass, height, weight, reach ect. Of course depending on the type f sports, for this one combat sports like boxing, MMA, wrestling, a sport with far more intensity and volume, versus something like chess or golf or skiing, which doesn't involve too much striking or force transfer to a human body, more actions on objects like golf or soccer.

[PurpleTree]

14 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@PurpleTree

   more actions on objects like golf or soccer.

golf isn’t like soccer friend

[Schizophonia]

Lol, some trans athletes are bigger than my uncles who are nevertheless giants.

The testosterone argument is very stupid.

[PurpleTree]

I think if let’s say men right wingers wanted to get trans women out of womens sports

they should try reverse psychology and start cheering them on and become their biggest fans

[Danioover9000]

@PurpleTree

1 hour ago, PurpleTree said:

golf isn’t like soccer friend

   Sure, I'm just saying the companies should modify parameters for MMA and combat sports to include Trans in their own category if they're so worried that women are getting dominated by trans, or if they're worried that men would dominate trans, and either one presents bad political optics for the company, just make that category or update the parameters.

[Roy]

8 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

I think if let’s say men right wingers wanted to get trans women out of womens sports

It has nothing to do with being right or left wing, it just has to do with having a functioning brain stem and acknowledging they are (obviously) not actual women, and we should stop enabling this mass hallucination and validating mental illness because it's reckless, unethical, uncompassionate, and does more harm than good.

It's also spitting in the face and disrespecting real women by directly undermining all the work they had to do to make separate spaces and organizations for themselves to compete, showcase, and enjoy sports.

Quite misogynist and anti-feminist if you ask me 

Edited October 6, 2023 by Roy

[Danioover9000]

@Roy

4 minutes ago, Roy said:

It has nothing to do with being right or left wing, it just has to do with having a functioning brain stem and acknowledging they are (obviously) not actual women, and we should stop enabling this mass hallucination and validating mental illness because it's reckless, unethical, uncompassionate, and does more harm than good.

   I think the main issue is how big companies handle the Trans issue in combat sports in particular, but also other sports as well. For example, they could try making a third category for trans, or they could modify parameters so that muscle mass, or body mass index, height, width, reach of arms and legs (for MMA types of sports).

   In a broader context, I partly agree that some groups maybe enabling this mass hallucination and validating mental illness due to political gain for more left leaning companies, but I think that's just more, from Ken Wilbur's view, mean green meme, the excess of stage green values, and even stage orange companies capitalizing on stage green outrage and LGBTQ and trans issues. Yes, we still don't have a more rigorous scientific method to find out in what ratio this is group think versus genetics and gender dysphoria.

   This is all due to developmental factors like value systems, cognition, morality, personality types and traits, ego development, differences in other domains of development in life and society, ideological beliefs indoctrinated, culture warfare, self biases and preferences. Also, due to how systemic this issue is, yes an easy fix solution may not solve this deeply, more like a well thought out solution half solves an issue. For example, by introducing a third category for combat sports, there could be not enough trans for competitive field, as men say make 80% of MMA, 19% are women fighters, but 1% are trans, so if total number is 10,000 MMA fighters, 8,000 are men, 1,900 are women, and 100 are trans. So not enough incentive for competition or for promotions or marketing. Also, if we go the modify parameters route, not only should we consider weight divisions and hydration, but new things like height, width, length of limbs, muscle mass, muscle density, approximate force and speed generated, background, skill set, fighting experience, nutrition, diet, chemical and drugs(IMO a big factor as some trans do hormone therapy and increased testosterone) and so on, not only do we make it more complicated even though we make it more scientific, by introducing so many controls and parameters, we could end up increasing paper work or slowing down events or say we introduce 1,00 controls and parameters, if something goes wrong in the system there's too many controls implemented to know which one rule needs removal or upgrading.

   Maybe @Carl-Richard can explain better.

[UnbornTao]

I get the sense that we might be confusing what sex and gender are. Sex is biological and pretty much set in stone, gender is mostly a cultural invention with some grounding on physiology. People want to get free of traditional gender stereotypes -- what it means to be a "man" and a "woman".

1. Male and female are distinctions that refer to sex as a biological fact
2. Man and woman may refer to the more flexible, socially-constructed reality of gender

Why are sport competitions separated by sexes in the first place?

This is part of my sloppy and naive take on this topic for now.

Edited October 7, 2023 by UnbornTao

[Roy]

41 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

I get a sense there's confusion about sex and gender. Sex is biological and pretty much set in stone, gender is a social/cultural thing. 

There is no real confusion. Sex and gender are undeniably in marriage and while they are clearly mailable to a degree, they are ultimately inseparable. Forever tethered together. The "confusion" that exists is only there because it's unconsciously manufactured by those who wish to obfuscate and gaslight the conversation to further their personal delusions, agenda, and political capital. They control all the educational and academic institutions and can summon whatever scientific evidence they want, then derive authority from that. 

There is a fundamental primal intuition we have as human beings about what really is the case here that's being relentlessly insulted and culturally strong armed into doubt. People need to perhaps consider those intuitions and internal wisdoms are there for good reason and have served us for developing society for thousands of years.

It's not a coincidence that trans people are so prone to self-deletion, and anyone who is actually observing this spectacle with a ounce of an intellectual honesty will notice it's not ONLY because of bullying and social factors, it's because it's an affront to nature. When you go against your nature at such a core level obviously there is going to be massive internal strife and psychological consequences.

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by Roy

[Hatfort]

Yeah, sports are exclusionary, not everyone is allowed to play automatically in whatever they want, you gotta have some physical conditions.

Biological sex should be another threshold, especially trans women can have some biological traits that can give advantages to them, generaly speaking.

[Danioover9000]

@UnbornTao

26 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

I get a sense there's confusion about sex and gender. Sex is biological and pretty much set in stone, gender is a social/cultural thing. 

People want to get free of traditional gender stereotypes -- what it means to be "man" and "woman". Context, whether we're talking about sex or gender, and the words used to describe those, are important.

Male and female are the distinctions used to refer to sex as a biological fact.

Man and woman could perhaps be used as referring to the more flexible, socially-constructed reality of gender.

In my opinion, it's no doubt a tricky decision but I would lean on the side of biology. 

Why are sports separated by sexes in the first place? Useful not to overlook this. What if they weren't? Hey, maybe they could, although that would likely be a detriment to the competition.

In any case that's my sloppy and very naive, temporary take on this topic. I don't really care that much.

   Sure, a sloppy and foolish take is better than no take right?

   Because there are biological difference in sex dimorphism between human male bodies and human female bodies, for example men have denser bones, denser/bigger muscles, thicker hair, stronger jaw and skull, shoulders wider than hips but shoulders are narrow and rigged to support more power, narrow hips and sometimes stronger bigger legs, little subcutaneous fat that also muscles to look harder and solid, in comparison to female bodies that have wider broader shoulders that helps with carrying babies, rounder face, subcutaneous fat that softens the muscle tone giving more curvier and smoother edges to muscle tone, softer hair and skin, hip to shoulder ratio hips are wider and rounder to give the glutes more curvy visual. Even in sex dimorphism plays a role in male and female attraction, for example males are more attracted to visual cues and looks of the female body, while females tend to be more attracted to auditory and kinesthetic, females need to hear and feel a man more to get attracted. Okay is main reason why sports separate by sex is that the male body is designed more to generate force and receive force back, plus they have greater endurance, speed, power, muscle coordination, and so on, so in particular to combat spots this distinction is crucial to make on averages because on averages most female bodies might struggle to compete against average male bodies in an even playing field with defined rules and parameters that is prescribed to both averages. The only exceptions that may not effect competition negatively as much, maybe even spikes interest in marketing towards a niche crowd, is maybe nude wrestling.

   Yes, male and female are referring to biological sexes, man and woman are the gender nouns onto the male/female biological labels, and men and women are the plural names for a group of man and a group of woman, so what does boy/girl refer to? Is boy/girl a social construct or a biological sex label? To me boy/girl refers to prepubescent to early/late adolescent bodies, yet in common language sometimes boy/girl names are labels to refer to places that function those with sex biological differences, and sometimes colloquially used by traditional gender norms. Also, the main problem is that words like male/man/men, or female/woman/women are semantically and syntax linked to one's developmental factors, and about 75% of the world, men and women, are under stage blue values systems, which predominantly have conservative minds more than liberal minds. How are you going to communicate to that large group, without triggering fear in them, or without making them feel threatened by the lose of their traditional male/female gender roles, because to them they're not at construct aware ego stage, and don't see this as a social construct, they're mostly conformist staged such that this lose in gender roles literally means the lose of the family unit, or the lose of the hard working father, or the decline of birth rates, or the moral degradation of the nation/religion. These fears are felt very real to them, and few are at construct aware to be aware those are just social constructs, most are not post modernists and see relativity as it is.

   Not to mention other developmental factors that makes this such a complicated issue, plus all the propaganda, narrative, ideological, cultural warfare and misinformation in bad faith that leads to polarization of all political and other groups viewing this problem, plus other developmental factors like values, cognitive biases, different moral and ethics, personality types/traits, ego developments, Architypes and shadow selves, other lines of development in society, ideological beliefs indoctrinated from media, news, family upbringing, TV stations, radio, social media platforms, all externalities influencing self biases and preferences, and how the mind thinks and feels and represents reality to itself. As above so below, as the saying goes.  

   

[UnbornTao]

1 hour ago, Roy said:

There is no real confusion. Sex and gender are undeniably in marriage and while they are clearly mailable to a degree, they are ultimately inseparable. Forever tethered together. The "confusion" that exists is only there because it's unconsciously manufactured by those who wish to obfuscate and gaslight the conversation to further their personal delusions, agenda, and political capital. They control all the educational and academic institutions and can summon whatever scientific evidence they want, then derive authority from that. 

There is a fundamental primal intuition we have as human beings about what really is the case here that's being relentlessly insulted and culturally strong armed into doubt. People need to perhaps consider those intuitions and internal wisdoms are there for good reason and have served us for developing society for thousands of years.

It's not a coincidence that trans people are so prone to self-deletion, and anyone who is actually observing this spectacle with a ounce of an intellectual honesty will notice it's not ONLY because of bullying and social factors, it's because it's an affront to nature. When you go against your nature at such a core level obviously there is going to be massive internal strife and psychological consequences.

 

Where is "gender"? A lot of "gender" is found in the conceptual domain.

In any case, I have yet to investigate this matter.

Edited October 7, 2023 by UnbornTao

[itsadistraction]

Let people do what they want! but I think trans is a very different path from enlightenment. Enlightenment is realizing you aren't the body. Trans is playing dress up as another gender when gender is a social construction. I think trans people are lost. Just as I think religious people are lost. And most of society is lost. 

[PurpleTree]

23 minutes ago, itsadistraction said:

Let people do what they want! 

What when two people want something different, which makes it impossible for both to do what they want?

[itsadistraction]

10 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

What when two people want something different, which makes it impossible for both to do what they want?

That's why we vote on things and majority rules. If the people want to allow transgenders in sports I am ok with it (eventhough I think it's silly). 

[Shadowraix]

Oh yippee love when my existence is being debated.

15 hours ago, Roy said:

Quite misogynist and anti-feminist if you ask me

Trans rights and feminism have a long history together and is intersectional. Feminists are generally trans inclusive and provide pushback against the TERF movement who reinforce typical gender roles and don't care to get cisgender women in the crossfire of their anti-trans tirade. Big figures in that movement have close ties to fascists.

15 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

a more rigorous scientific method to find out in what ratio this is group think versus genetics and gender dysphoria.

While we encourage the increase in scientific literature towards us we generally are wary of the pathologization of the trans experience as it could lead down a path that is further harmful to us. Gender dysphoria is not a requirement to be trans. It does not make people trans. Trans people can have gender dysphoria because they are trans. You can't diagnose someone as trans like how you can't diagnose someone as being gay.

On 10/6/2023 at 7:57 AM, Danioover9000 said:

is to make a trans category from men or women.

There are so few trans athletes that this would not be viable and it merely just 'others' trans folk into a corner of society to maintain a system that is catered towards cisgender individuals. Its not very inclusive to intersex individuals either.

13 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

Because there are biological difference in sex dimorphism between human male bodies and human female bodies

The differences derive from hormones rather than the sex itself and it gets fairly complex. While there are averages that happen based on which hormone based puberty you went through first, they aren't inherent guarantees. There is lots of genetic diversity among those of the same sex. And when you factor in trans people you have to consider how HRT changes their physiology and consider that trans folk exist that don't go through puberty expected of their sex at all. HRT for a year or two is considered the standard in sports committee regulations that allow trans participation.

Then we get into the issue of fairness and genetic advantages. Even among a particular sex a certain degree of genetic advantage is tolerated because it is considered fair. I mean on the extreme end olympians are basically chock full of people who won the genetic lottery. But in general we still allow genetic diversity even if it gives someone an edge. The question becomes not whether trans people may have a physiology thats also observed in cisgender individuals but whether their real-world performance operates outside the parameters of whats allowed for cisgender individuals. You can cite attributes and quantify them all day long but its meaningless unless it translates to unfair real world performance.

When trans people win in sports they make big headlines and it starts a ruckus on this issue, but when we lose like we do the majority of the time it sweeps under the radar since it doesn't fuel the outrage machine. Lia Thomas was a big recent case of outrage despite her only just winning in one category and being none of the 27 records broken during that competition. Shes also lost to Iszac Henig, a trans man. Trans people have been allowed to compete among many sports orgs for several decades now.

The IOC has guidelines that exclusion is not justified unless there is robust evidence of an unfair advantage. Currently the scientific literature on this subject is mixed and theres a conflict of methodologies where some will actually test real world performance while others just measure physical attributes and don't test performance.

[How to be wise]

@Shadowraix No one is debating your existence. What’s being debated is how you should be classified in official documents, in sports, and whether people are allowed to refer to you as a man. 

[Danioover9000]

@itsadistraction

15 hours ago, itsadistraction said:

Let people do what they want! but I think trans is a very different path from enlightenment. Enlightenment is realizing you aren't the body. Trans is playing dress up as another gender when gender is a social construction. I think trans people are lost. Just as I think religious people are lost. And most of society is lost. 

   Let people do what they want...which includes theft, sexual assault, murder, abuse, scams, and many more evils?

   Don't conflate Trans to Enlightenment, it muddies and is ignorant of the distinctions between Enlightenment and trans gender, the two words that belong to two different contexts.

   No, Trans is not playing dress up, that's cosplaying and cross dressing, while there might be gender swapping that could happen, that's not the whole trans movement, it's sloppy thinking to think it such.

   No, trans people, religious people, and most of society are not lost, that's ridiculous. Please chill down.

[Danioover9000]

@How to be wise

30 minutes ago, How to be wise said:

@Shadowraix No one is debating your existence. What’s being debated is how you should be classified in official documents, in sports, and whether people are allowed to refer to you as a man. 

   Or as a woman, don't forget.