Finland Prisoners Live The Good Life

[Ulax]

48 minutes ago, Tobia said:

Short-sighted way of thinking. "Penalising them" means penalizing society.

Crime is not just an individual problem but also a collective problem and responsibility. Revenge cannot be part of justice in a civilized society.

Individual desire for revenge is something developed societies have to move away from.

Besides, why spend money to lock up someone who has been rehabilitated? 

You want that person working and contributing to society, a functioning citizen.

@Tobia My issue is that victims have a need for justice to be served, which I'd argue generally means seeing punishment of the perpetrator. If that need isn't met, then the victim suffers, or the victim will take it upon themselves to find justice. If either of these occur there are negative consequences for society.

[TheAlchemist]

Reasonings behind putting people in prison

1) Retribution

2) Incapacitation

3) Deterrence

4) Rehabilitation

The Finnish system (and Norwegian more so) simply have a different understanding of what Retribution means. 

In the US and many other countries it seems that retribution means making the criminal suffer as punishment for their wrongdoing. That is seen as a part of Justice.

Whereas the idea of Justice in these Nordic countries is seen to be mostly independent from whether or not the prisoner is made to suffer or not.  

Notice how the Christian idea of justice is strongly tied to punishment and suffering. 

Edited October 5, 2023 by TheAlchemist

[TheAlchemist]

19 minutes ago, Ulax said:

@Tobia My issue is that victims have a need for justice to be served, which I'd argue generally means seeing punishment of the perpetrator. If that need isn't met, then the victim suffers, or the victim will take it upon themselves to find justice. If either of these occur there are negative consequences for society.

I am certain that victims surely have a need for Justice. I also think its admirable that you show concern for victims of crime and you clearly value justice highly which I respect. 

That being said, I believe the need for justice there is real, but I don't think punishment or retribution are in themselves needs. They are startegies for meeting the need (justice). I am feeling quite confident about saying that there are ways of meeting the need for justice, without feeding the cycle of pain and hurt. 

One way, which comes from indigenous Americans that I was quite impressed with when I heard about it, was bringing the victims and the perpetrator together and creating a space where the perpetrator hears what hurt and pain his actions caused in the people who were victims.

This process can be done with the help of a professional mediator and is continued until the victims feel truly heard and the perpetrator has witnessed the impact of his actions. Then different paths can be navigated there to find peace. It seems that this process often can meet the need for justice in the victims and doesn't further feed the cycle of pain and hurt in society.

Edited October 5, 2023 by TheAlchemist

[Bobby_2021]

I cannot wait to imagine myself as a Finnish prisoner. ?

[Ulax]

1 hour ago, TheAlchemist said:

One way, which comes from indigenous Americans that I was quite impressed with when I heard about it, was bringing the victims and the perpetrator together and creating a space where the perpetrator hears what hurt and pain his actions caused in the people who were victims.

This process can be done with the help of a professional mediator and is continued until the victims feel truly heard and the perpetrator has witnessed the impact of his actions. Then different paths can be navigated there to find peace. It seems that this process often can meet the need for justice in the victims and doesn't further feed the cycle of pain and hurt in society.

@TheAlchemist I'd class that as being a restorative justice approach.

I see a lot of value in the approach. However, when a perpetrator has committed a serious crime on the victim then I think the approach is found lacking. For example, in the case of a rape I don't think a restorative justice approach is useful. I would see the offence as being too severe to be rectified in any meaningful way by facilitating a restorative space.

In that circumstance I would like to see a sentencing based on a mix of retributive justice and rehabilitation.

[Danioover9000]

@Yimpa

19 hours ago, Yimpa said:

This is nuts. How am I just learning about this now?

 

   IMO, as much as this is a bit controversial take, I do think this is good in the long term. I think and feel that prisons are justified places to torture the some people who are too different from the majority in society, and the way American prison system is done, or I'd say western prisons or even eastern prisons are done, is completely inhuman and counter productive the the incentive of survival for most societies, as they must rely on civilians, so rehabilitation centers and other facilities to social program convicted peoples are important. Also, yes I do partly hate evil people, and am built different that I as an introvert can handle high times of loneliness, I do feel like life without parole, in concrete boxes, is justified tortue of the mind, body and soul of the convicted, guilty or especially inoccent.

[PurpleTree]

2 hours ago, TheAlchemist said:

 

Notice how the Christian idea of justice is strongly tied to punishment and suffering. 

Is it?

the scandinavian countries and finland have the cross on their flag.

[Chives99]

their dorms are  better than my uni accomodation. 

[TheAlchemist]

2 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

Is it?

the scandinavian countries and finland have the cross on their flag.

You're right, but church and state are more strongly separated here.

[Yimpa]

5 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

I cannot wait to imagine myself as a Finnish prisoner. ?

Your profile smile is similar to the video thumbnail 

[Bobby_2021]

5 hours ago, Yimpa said:

Your profile smile is similar to the video thumbnail 

??

[Mulky]

This gave me an "aww" feeling, at how sweet it is.

[Yimpa]

5 minutes ago, Mulky said:

This gave me an "aww" feeling, at how sweet it is.

Reminds me of cats. They are indeed “aww”, but if you’re a mouse then it’ll be, “awww shit, get me the fuck outta here!!!”

[Mulky]

Well our prisons are abusive by nature. And an abusive environment is conducive to violent psychology and behavior.  It's hard to argue with the results they are getting.