What is LOVE?, or: Why we have to go to war

[Princess Arabia]

1 hour ago, vibv said:

I don't want to be seen as a teacher. I'm an artist. I also like to play out the archetype of the fool or jester.

On the other hand I wasn't really frustrated. I actually enjoy discussing with @Breakingthewall and I don't bank on changing his or someone else's mind, that's not my job. My job is deconstructing worldviews and showing others incosistencies in their philosophy how I perceive them.

Sometimes I just channel something that's given to me in the moment. I try to formulate that as precise and concise as possible. But after that what everybody does with it is not my worry anymore.

I enjoy reading your discussions with @Breakingthewall. I find you both inspiring, as far as reading/contemplating what you both Have to say. I value you both as far as your contributions in how you think and perceive and it really takes it to another level when opposing viewpoints coincide, respectfully as you both have been.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Princess Arabia

[Osaid]

10 hours ago, vibv said:

You are saying that there's a before and after enlightenment.

Yeah but that's not enlightenment. That's just time. That's how the dream "wraps up" enlightenment so to speak. You can travel to Hawaii, but the process of travelling to Hawaii is an abstraction of experience that is never actually experienced, and it is not equal to the experience of being at Hawaii. In the same way, the end result of enlightenment is purely experiential, and it has nothing to do with time. There is no experience in existence that contradicts what is infinite or true, ultimately, which is why you get people saying "Everyone is enlightened!", but I personally find that to be unhelpful as a pointer. 

It's not that the unenlightened experience is less true, they are just mistaking the human capability of intellect for something that it is not, and that occurs inside of an experience which is infinite. The idea of discerning true and untrue is itself more intellect. I never said that unenlightenment wasn't a human phenomenon, it is, but the process of going from unenlightened to enlightened has nothing to do with the actual experience of it, because that is a relative time-based process. The process happens in many ways which are different for everyone. But the experience of it is not a process at all. It's just what you are. It's what experience has always been, but now there is no human intellect misinterpreting it.

If a picture was to convey it, it would be like one of those optical illusions where you can switch perspectives despite the picture itself staying the same. The "switching" of perspectives is seemingly binary but also simultaneously occuring within the exact same experience, and the nature of experience is that it never truly binary.

Being infinite means ONE, and it means you only "realize yourself" ONCE. It is a materialistic idea to say that being infinite means you can realize yourself an infinite amount of times, because that is referring to time which is relative and not infinite. Being infinite doesn't mean you chase an "infinite" amount of experiences which make you realize what you are, this doesn't actually ever occur because you are referring to future events, which contradicts reality being one and infinite. Being infinite and "future events" will never fit into eachother, because future events are an abstraction of experience. That is to say, you are never going to find a truer version of yourself which exists in an experience which isn't happening right now.

[vibv]

19 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

@vibv anyway, i see clearly that it is possible to see deeper, every day I try to clear my mind, discover the deceptions, have a clearer vision of what this, now, is. Identify the door that the mind is, see what exactly that the self is, what it is doing now, see it and thus it collapses. It's a fun exercise. The self sees itself, it is hidden behind something very complicated, an energy network. you can make it collapse, then reality opens up. It is extremely difficult to maintain that state for more than a few minutes, then the energy network forms again. I know that this is the path, clarity passes through identification and the collapse of the self, it is surrender to the now, openness. This requires completely forgetting absolutely everything. your mind must be at zero. you must let it fall into nothingness, and the now opens. but if you start to interpret it (which is inevitable after a short time) it closes again. a difficult art to master

I think we're both right. If it feels right it is right.

Reality seems again and again like infinite contradictions and paradoxes that turn out to always be true at the same time.

The way I see it reality is completely impersonal but at the same time very personal. I mean, you're still there aren't you? You have a very specific personal structure, your own sense of humour, your unique struggles and insights. All that constitutes the Beauty that is It/We.

[Breakingthewall]

12 minutes ago, vibv said:

you're still there aren't you? You have a very specific personal structure, your own sense of humour, your unique struggles and insights. All that constitutes the Beauty that is It/We.

Yes, of course, but that is precisely what you have to transcend if you want to open yourself to reality. All of that is a cloud, a phantom entity that is the mind. It is as if he painted reality in colors and in this way the sensation of something defined is created, which ultimately is the self. It seems impossible to dissolve the self because it is the self itself that tries to do so. What the self has to do is change perspective, stop looking at the colors outside, which are all the mental images, all the stories, all the content, and look into the empty depth of this moment now. It's an action.  Now it is the only thing that exists and it is empty of content. There is nothing outside of this, everything is illusion. then the now opens, you are out of the mind. No interpretation can be done, because if you do, you are looking the colors again

Edited October 5, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[vibv]

11 minutes ago, Osaid said:

But the experience of it is not a process at all. It's just what you are. It's what experience has always been, but now there is no human intellect misinterpreting it.

I perceive this moment to be the only thing that exists, has ever existed and will ever exist. Everything appears here/now. It can't be otherwise. Also I, my personality and ego, appear in the infinite, eternal moment that is NOW.

Do you mean that or something different? Words are so coarse to talk about this stuff.

Quote

Being infinite means ONE, and it means you only "realize yourself" ONCE. It is a materialistic idea to say that being infinite means you can realize yourself an infinite amount of times, because that is referring to time which is relative and not infinite. Being infinite doesn't mean you chase an "infinite" amount of experiences which make you realize what you are, this doesn't actually ever occur because you are referring to future events, which contradicts reality being one and infinite. Being infinite and "future events" will never fit into eachother, because future events are an abstraction of experience. That is to say, you are never going to find a truer version of yourself which exists in an experience which isn't happening right now.

Right. But at the same time something is happening – or at least seems to happen – isn't it?

There's clearly a direction of this, hinted at by the term "Evolution". Don't you see it that way?

Sure, you could say "it's all relative", but that aside, something is clearly happening and it's not random.

Edited October 5, 2023 by vibv

[Breakingthewall]

18 minutes ago, Osaid said:

In the same way, the end result of enlightenment is purely experiential, and it has nothing to do with time

For me enlightenment is realize the infinite now. but there may be more depth to this. not because you increase your consciousness, this is infinite now, but because of the degree to which you can get the self out of the way. There are moments in which the self is very dense, others more tenuous, it is very difficult for it to be zero. So, saying I am enlightened does not make sense, since there are degrees. Being in a zero self state, like a mystic in total depth, is not something that will last days, it can last 10 seconds, and almost always with traces of self clouding, that's the spiritual work, to try to get this mystical states as clean and longer is possible

[Breakingthewall]

33 minutes ago, vibv said:

Right. But at the same time something is happening – or at least seems to happen – isn't it?

There's clearly a direction of this, hinted at by the term "Evolution". Don't you see it that way?

Sure, you could say "it's all relative", but that aside, something is clearly happening and it's not random.

Of course, in the reality in evolution. we are slaves of that evolution. The collective mind is a living being in evolution. we are an evolving physical organism in symbiosis/slavery with a ghostly organism that is the collective mind. There seems to be no way out of this, but it is important to master this combo and be able to pause it as much as possible, so as not to go crazy. It's very difficult to stop the identification with the mind . If you start to think about evolution, etc, you are trapped. All of that I said about evolution is an history. It doesn't mean that's false, just that it's an history. If we want mystic state we have to stop the histories

Edited October 5, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

57 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

I enjoy reading your discussions with @Breakingthewall. I find you both inspiring, as far as reading/contemplating what you both Have to say. I value you both as far as your contributions in how you think and perceive and it really takes it to another level when opposing viewpoints coincide, respectfully as you both have been.

Here in this forum we are talking about a subject extremely slippery. It has the peculiarity that your mind always makes you think that you are right, that you have reached where you had to go.The reality is that you are alone before a huge enigma, existence. this, now. Luckily there are people who want to talk about it. We are all annoying with that: you are wrong, I see it. but in this matter being wrong is normal

[Yimpa]

4 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

God doesn't know anything about peeling off anything God just is. 

God is ABSOLUTE UNDERSTANDING.

[Yimpa]

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

I see is as a misunderstanding now, but you never know 

God can absolutely understand God, and that is why Peter Ralston is NOT Awake.

P.S. I Love Peter Ralston, but not knowing is still a limited understanding of reality. But guess what? I have a lot I can still learn from Peter Ralston and other traditional teachers despite that. That’s how amazing and paradoxical GOD is.

[Breakingthewall]

12 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

God can absolutely understand God, and that is why Peter Ralston is NOT Awake.

P.S. I Love Peter Ralston, but not knowing is still a limited understanding of reality. But guess what? I have a lot I can still learn from Peter Ralston and other traditional teachers despite that. That’s how amazing and paradoxical GOD is.

The expression God is creating reality for me is false. You could say God is reality, but then you can also say reality is reality. God implies a subject doing an action with a result, reality. That is not so, it is the reality springing from the fact that there are no limits. no one is needed imagining anything

[Yimpa]

@Breakingthewall God imagines limits precisely so God can enjoy God.

Enough of the foreplay! 

[Breakingthewall]

Just now, Yimpa said:

@Breakingthewall God imagines limits precisely so God can enjoy God.

Enough of the foreplay! 

14 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

 

How do you know that? Because Leo said to you? Not enough. Or do you realize god doing that by yourself? How exactly?

[Yimpa]

@Breakingthewall Since you’re imagining all of reality, you are helping you awaken you. 

I know I sound like I’m talking in riddles right now, but you’re ultimately going to have to awaken yourself.

Articulating and grasping this stuff logically is inherently limited. But limitations are not a limitation to awakening unless you convince yourself that that the opposite is true.

Feel free to disregard this message if it’s too mind-boggling. 

[Breakingthewall]

1 minute ago, Yimpa said:

@Breakingthewall Since you’re imagining all of reality, you are helping you awaken you. 

I know I sound like I’m talking in riddles right now, but you’re ultimately going to have to awaken yourself.

Articulating and grasping this stuff logically is inherently limited. But limitations are not a limitation to awakening unless you convince yourself that that the opposite is true.

Feel free to disregard this message if it’s too mind-boggling. 

What I'm asking you is if you have realized all of this on a mental level, understanding, or on a direct, mystical level, and if it is the latter, how many times, how do you access those states. For me, before intuiting/understanding something like this you have to access totally mystical states on a regular basis, mystical ecstasy, zero resistance, no mind. drop the self. like ramana maharshi and those people. I work seriously to access those states, it is not easy at all, the mind is cunning. Accessing mystical states is something that few people do. Think for example that guys like Zen Buddhists or people as Ramakrishna were dedicated to it a lifetime and had a different vision than that: you are god creating reality. How have you come to that realization? Would you have come to that if you had never seen a Leo video? because any intellectual suggestion that took you there is deception. do you know this? Or are you lost in the labyrinth of the mind?

[Yimpa]

@Breakingthewall The less bias I am and the more I care about all of reality. Love.

[Breakingthewall]

2 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

@Breakingthewall The less bias I am and the more I care about all of reality. Love.

Just your ideas I'd say. Inside of the mental bubble. It's not easy to go out, few even understand that they are inside of a mental bubble

[Sir Oberon]

7 hours ago, An young being said:

But, if we reach the end by removing all layers without doing the peeling, aren't we left with nothing to do?

That's the mystery about it, I guess we will know, or "not know" when we get there.  Its deeper than knowing..   Many mystics that I have read, Christian and Otherwise all seem to point to the renunciation of the ego.  And when we get there it's like an un-knowing.   You don't attain the higher states until you relinquish the Ego self.    Christ consciousness, God consciousness, or what have you.  The Buddha nature? 

Some monks/nuns would prefer to remain in seclusion once they attained the higher states,  however would come back to the world to instruct the many earnest seekers...   it's all been said.  There seems to be a unity in the mystical traditions that surpasses dogmatic teachings.

[Yimpa]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

Just your ideas I'd say. Inside of the mental bubble. It's not easy to go out, few even understand that they are inside of a mental bubble

Let’s go to war to settle our dispute then. Put em up!!

[Sir Oberon]

Psychedelics can alter consciousness in a profound way when one takes a large dose.  Many know this.  However, it's a temporary shift in awareness that can be so earth-shattering that you don't want to come down or back to baseline.  Been there, and then spent the rest of my days in awe and gratitude for the insights. Am I enlightened, no,  But I have had some very profound experiences.  And what I experienced rings true with many mystical teachers/writings I was reading at the time,  when I did the mind expansion thing.