If you can fully love reality, are you then enlightened?

[vibv]

2 minutes ago, Understander said:

Religion can't exist without dogma.

This depends on your definition of religion. The concept of Religion has been completely polluted and twisted by humanity in the past centuries.

If you define it as having an experience of the Divine together then I see absolutely nothing wrong with that.

[Ajax]

3 minutes ago, vibv said:

This depends on your definition of religion. The concept of Religion has been completely polluted and twisted by humanity in the past centuries.

If you define it as having an experience of the Divine together then I see absolutely nothing wrong with that.

A common trait of religion it provides precise answers or promises the answers. Or specifies certain practices... if you do abc... you will get xyz.

Of course there are some that swear that you will see god by "sucking off" the bong or shoving "manna" straight up your ass!  I guess those acts constitute religious practices!

lol I am being silly!

[Yimpa]

14 minutes ago, vibv said:

If you define it as having an experience of the Divine together then I see absolutely nothing wrong with that.

I would rather have complete autonomy over what I drink and how I drink it, rather than drink Kool-Aid out of blind faith because some supposed higher authority told me it’s the right thing to do.

Group-think is not cool; it’ll convert you into a fool. 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Yimpa

[vibv]

2 minutes ago, Ajax said:

A common trait of religion it provides precise answers or promises the answers. Or specifies certain practices... if you do abc... you will get xyz.

Of course there are some that swear that you will see god by "sucking off" the bong or shoving "manna" straight up your ass!  I guess those acts constitute religious practices!

lol I am being silly!

A good religion doesn't provide you any answers. It just gives you a ceremony, a ritual, you can either attend and do with others or do it by yourself. And what you make of it is completely up to you.

Taking 5-MeO in a certain setting and with a certain mindset already has characteristics of a ceremony. The only thing that's missing is doing it with others.

You could argue that it's impossible to do it with others and reach nearly the same states. I'd argue that it's certainly harder, but impossible is a big word. The real question that you have to ask is: Would it be worth it?

[Yimpa]

@vibv It’s fine to do psychedelics with others in the beginning stages, but if you want to go deeper then you’re going to have to drop that fantasy that you’re proposing.

 

[vibv]

3 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

I would rather have complete autonomy over what I drink and how I drink it, rather than drink Kool-Aid out of blind faith because some supposed higher authority told me it’s the right thing to do.

Group-think is not cool; it’ll convert you into a fool. 

We don't have to call it religion then.

What I mean is developing a ceremony to attend with the intention of experiencing the Divine together in a repeatable fashion.

Beyond that you can connect with other people, exchange viewpoints and whatnot. But there is no scripture that tells you what you have to believe and do.

[vibv]

Just now, Yimpa said:

@vibv It’s fine to do psychedelics with others in the beginning stages, but if you want to go deeper then you’re going to have to drop that fantasy that you’re proposing.

 

Well. That's the thing. I'm aware of the possibility that I'm completely deluded. But I know what I saw and I know what I experience again and again when I take psychedelics. I saw that it is not only possible but it will be the most amazing celebration that ever happened on this planet by orders of magnitude.

[Princess Arabia]

37 minutes ago, vibv said:

Well. That's the thing. I'm aware of the possibility that I'm completely deluded. But I know what I saw and I know what I experience again and again when I take psychedelics. I saw that it is not only possible but it will be the most amazing celebration that ever happened on this planet by orders of magnitude.

They are not understanding you when you say Religion. I understand, tho,. Mainstream Religion has gotten such a bad rap, which it should, that just the name alone throws people off. What you're talking about is Spiritual Religion, if we may call it that, not the normal way the word usually symbolizes; but I get what you're saying. 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Princess Arabia

[Nemra]

@vibv

Everything depends on how you define it.

Maybe religions are having trouble surviving in this era.

It doesn't matter how pure or corrupt they are; they are meant for ignorant people.

The pollution starts when people who have some direct experience start teaching others without giving them the ways to do that or just by telling them. How can you trust that all of them got you? How would they know what direct experience is? That process is so internal that you can't prove to others whether you get it or not, even if you say the right words. When religion is formed on it, don't you see that the pollution gets polluted, no matter how the spiritual texts are written—with the same words or changed? And this is only the spiritual aspect of religion.

A lot of religious people believe that they are the chosen and most truthful ones, but they don't really think through that, not even the teachers. Nowadays, they can openly tell others that there can be many truths, but they believe otherwise.

Maybe in the past, religions were useful for people, but they were still dumb to the people who actually had the luxury to experience life more fully.

[Princess Arabia]

5 minutes ago, Understander said:

@vibv

Everything depends on how you define it.

Maybe religions are having trouble surviving in this era.

It doesn't matter how pure or corrupt they are; they are meant for ignorant people.

The pollution starts when people who have some direct experience start teaching others without giving them the ways to do that or just by telling them. How can you trust that all of them got you? How would they know what direct experience is? That process is so internal that you can't prove to others whether you get it or not, even if you say the right words. When religion is formed on it, don't you see that the pollution gets polluted, no matter how the spiritual texts are written—with the same words or changed? And this is only the spiritual aspect of religion.

A lot of religious people believe that they are the chosen and most truthful ones, but they don't really think through that, not even the teachers. Nowadays, they can openly tell others that there can be many truths, but they believe otherwise.

Maybe in the past, religions were useful for people, but they were still dumb to the people who actually had the luxury to experience life more fully.

I think @vibvwas speaking of how you define the word - not the Churches and the different Religions like Methodists, Baptist etc... but the word itself. 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Princess Arabia

[Inliytened1]

4 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

?

No 

[Nemra]

@Princess Arabia 

Well, we can change the definition, but wouldn't that make it complicated?

Why not say spiritual community?

Or maybe a word that is more direct.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Understander

[vibv]

31 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

They are not understanding you when you say Religion. I understand, tho,. Mainstream Religion has gotten such a bad rap, which it should, that just the name alone throws people off. What you're talking about is Spiritual Religion, if we may call it that, not the normal way the word usually symbolizes; but I get what you're saying. 

Thank you, appreciated.

28 minutes ago, Understander said:

@vibv

Everything depends on how you define it.

Maybe religions are having trouble surviving in this era.

It doesn't matter how pure or corrupt they are; they are meant for ignorant people.

The pollution starts when people who have some direct experience start teaching others without giving them the ways to do that or just by telling them. How can you trust that all of them got you? How would they know what direct experience is? That process is so internal that you can't prove to others whether you get it or not, even if you say the right words. When religion is formed on it, don't you see that the pollution gets polluted, no matter how the spiritual texts are written—with the same words or changed? And this is only the spiritual aspect of religion.

A lot of religious people believe that they are the chosen and most truthful ones, but they don't really think through that, not even the teachers. Nowadays, they can openly tell others that there can be many truths, but they believe otherwise.

Maybe in the past, religions were useful for people, but they were still dumb to the people who actually had the luxury to experience life more fully.

What about a "religion" that doesn't have a leader? And no scriptures that tell you the truth or any truth? But instead you have a story that you just live through – that's all. Only a story, that's also called a story and not facts.

Think of a spiritual musical of some kind.

With a story that touches on deeper subjects like life & death, addiction & depression, stagnation & transformation, hope & despair, time & impermanence, dying & resurrection, healing & forgiveness, love, emotions, humanity, the cosmos, the journey, the dance of the universe, and so much more...

But you know at all times that it is only a story. A story that provokes you to contemplate more deeply, love more radical, live more passionately, give yourself more completely and so much more...

And you can have the most amazing experience of contact with Life, Love and the Divine, but you can also just chill and hang out, exchange your ideas and feelings with others, you can just dance and enjoy yourself. Or you can go on a cosmic adventure that will transform you if you let it.

You will express emotions in an intensity you've never known before, experience true catharsis, and at the end you look at the night sky and feel the connection to the cosmos and everything in it... You wink at the stars because you finally know that there's something you didn't know before. And they wink back at you because they know now you're finally in on their little secret...

You don't have ANY responsibility beyond that night. Whatever happens is from now on your personal treasure and you can do with it and integrate it as you please..

And then you do that every month together with the most amazing, open and beautiful people you can think of...

Wouldn't that be great?

Edited October 3, 2023 by vibv

[Princess Arabia]

1 minute ago, Understander said:

@Princess Arabia Well, we can change the definition, but wouldn't that make it complicated?

Why not say spiritual community?

Why not try to understand what is being said than trying to have them use words to fit into your limited mind. That's how we expand the mind by opening up to greater understandings. The word Religion can also be used to describe other things other than a Church/s system. Any system that has a particular structure can be described as a Religion as long as it falls under the word's description of what something means to be a Religion, not necessarily Churches.

 

 

 

 

 

[Nemra]

@vibv 

I don't think there can be a "religion" without a leader.

@Princess Arabia

Then we should specify what kind of religion we are talking about. I'm not against it.

[Princess Arabia]

11 minutes ago, vibv said:

Thank you, appreciated.

What about a "religion" that doesn't have a leader? And no scriptures that tell you the truth or any truth? But instead you have a story that you just life through, that's all. Only a story, that's called a story and not facts.

Or think of a spiritual musical of some kind.

With a story that touches on deeper subjects like life & death, addiction & depression, stagnation & transformation, hope & despair, time & impermanence, dying & resurrection, healing & forgiveness, love, emotions, humanity, the cosmos, the journey, the dance of the universe, and so much more...

But you know at all times that it is only a story. A story that provokes you to contemplate more deeply, love more radical, live more passionately, give yourself more completely and so much more...

And you can have the most amazing experience of contact with Life, Love and the Divine, but you can also just chill and hang out, exchange your ideas and feelings with others, you can just dance and enjoy yourself. Or you can go on a cosmic adventure that will transform you if you let it. You will express emotions in an intensity you've never known before, experience true catharsis, and at the end you look at the night sky and feel the connection to the cosmos and everything in it... You wink at the stars because you finally know that there's something you didn't know before. And they wink back at you because they know now you know their little secret...

You don't have ANY responsibility beyond that night. Whatever happens is from now on your personal treasure and you can do with it and integrate it as you please..

And then you do that every month together with the most amazing, open and beautiful people you can think of...

Wouldn't that be great?

Well, I was trying to win the lottery so I could do something as magnificent as that and invite the top Spiritual teachers to come and speak and then some and discuss everything you mentioned above in the most joyous, peaceful atmosphere with lots of food and music and had a magnificent dream about all this and so much more, but the people on here told me I was greedy and didn't want to work and struggle to make ends meet and that the lottery was evil and for losers.

 

 

[vibv]

18 minutes ago, Understander said:

Well, we can change the definition, but wouldn't that make it complicated?

Why not say spiritual community?

Or maybe a word that is more direct.

The way I described it it's not about building a community in that sense beyond a night or weekend. Except of course casual exchanges outside that or maybe a forum, but all very loose. 

Maybe think of it more like a verb – (to) religion. We don't create a Religion, we 'religion'.

[Princess Arabia]

5 minutes ago, Understander said:

@vibv 

I don't think there can be a "religion" without a leader.

@Princess Arabia

Then we should specify what kind of religion we are talking about. I'm not against it.

Vibv did

[vibv]

7 minutes ago, Understander said:

@vibv 

I don't think there can be a "religion" without a leader.

There won't be a religious leader. There will only be a lead singer and performer that leads through the story and night. But anyone can do that later when they're familiar with the material.

[Nemra]

@vibv @Princess Arabia  

The question is: How much and what change is good?

@vibv I think that those kind of communities already exist.