Mirtazapine increase testosterone

[Schizophonia]

I was on Mirtazapine to treat my chronic severe insomnia.
It works quite well but there was one day when it wasn't the case (too nervous during the day I guess...) and I took the opportunity to go for a blood test prescribed by my doctor.
Against all expectations, my testosterone increased slightly despite the sleepless night and the previous sleepless nights, to 964ng/dl.
I guess with good sleep it could be over 1000ng/dl with a series of good nights.

Is this a coincidence?
I'm a little "afraid" that it comes from a reduction in DHT or even estradiol, I don't feel very impulsive/libidinous and the LH hasn't moved, so there's little chance that it comes from an intensification of the hormonal cascade.

[Schizophonia]

@Jason Actualization

@Michael569

@undeather

[Carl-Richard]

8 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Is this a coincidence?

I know essentially nothing about this, but my intuition is yes. You should test yourself dozens of times to see how it fluctuates. To borrow a term from @Michael569: mechanistic speculation is easy, and it doesn't mean much before you do the actual tests.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[undeather]

What do you mean with "increased slightly"?
How high was your testosterone in previous measurements?
 
It is evident that most antidepressants can influence testosterone and estrogen level - but a random fluctiation might be more likely.

[Schizophonia]

12 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

I know essentially nothing about this, but my intuition is yes. You should test yourself dozens of times to see how it fluctuates. To borrow a term from @Michael569: mechanistic speculation is easy, and it doesn't mean much before you do the actual tests.

yes

6 hours ago, undeather said:

What do you mean with "increased slightly"?
How high was your testosterone in previous measurements?

Always between 700 and 900ng.

6 hours ago, undeather said:

 
It is evident that most antidepressants can influence testosterone and estrogen level - but a random fluctiation might be more likely.

Mirtazapine is not an SSRI.

[undeather]

2 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

yes

Always between 700 and 900ng.

Mirtazapine is not an SSRI.

Where did I say it‘s a SSRI? Not all antidepressants are of this specific group.
Mirtazapine is a tetracyclic antidepressant 

okay, in that case I would say it’s propably just a random fluctuation 

[Jason Actualization]

Did you get DHT and estradiol measured concurrently?

What time of day did you have your blood drawn, and is that the same as you have historically?

[The0Self]

Testosterone is a non issue. It means far less than you or pretty much anyone else thinks. Sensitivity to it can vary anyway, so even if it did matter, the actual concentration in your blood wouldn’t tell the whole story.

Over 900-1000 ng/dL is going to lead to much faster hair loss anyway, even if you block DHT conversion — because while DHT strongly induces miniaturization of hair follicles, so does testosterone, just to a slightly lesser degree.

If one has low T, then they probably should have low T given their lifestyle — if you’re doing regular intense exercise, your testosterone will slowly increase to the level needed for optimal health. It might take months or it might take years, but it will be fine in the meantime even if it’s somewhat low. If it’s low, it’s often because you haven’t given your body a reason to need it in higher amounts.

I would say, if it’s low, then have good sleep and exercise and diet and stress management, but that would be misleading because it would sound like I’m saying higher testosterone is better, which it isn’t necessarily.

Ignore testosterone 99.9% of the time. Just train your mind and body hard, and treat it well. After all, its effect on libido is only mild as long as it’s not super low (like <300 ng/dL), and its effect on muscle mass is even smaller — perhaps the most notable effects are that it increases sensitivity to adrenaline, and thins out the hair.

The only time testosterone and androgens are truly significant, for muscle mass in particular, are when one is either 1. not exercising, or 2. taking anabolic steroids (which can destroy you inside and out).

Edited October 5, 2023 by The0Self

[undeather]

11 hours ago, The0Self said:

Testosterone is a non issue. It means far less than you or pretty much anyone else thinks. Sensitivity to it can vary anyway, so even if it did matter, the actual concentration in your blood wouldn’t tell the whole story.

Over 900-1000 ng/dL is going to lead to much faster hair loss anyway, even if you block DHT conversion — because while DHT strongly induces miniaturization of hair follicles, so does testosterone, just to a slightly lesser degree.

If one has low T, then they probably should have low T given their lifestyle — if you’re doing regular intense exercise, your testosterone will slowly increase to the level needed for optimal health. It might take months or it might take years, but it will be fine in the meantime even if it’s somewhat low. If it’s low, it’s often because you haven’t given your body a reason to need it in higher amounts.

I would say, if it’s low, then have good sleep and exercise and diet and stress management, but that would be misleading because it would sound like I’m saying higher testosterone is better, which it isn’t necessarily.

Ignore testosterone 99.9% of the time. Just train your mind and body hard, and treat it well. After all, its effect on libido is only mild as long as it’s not super low (like <300 ng/dL), and its effect on muscle mass is even smaller — perhaps the most notable effects are that it increases sensitivity to adrenaline, and thins out the hair.

The only time testosterone and androgens are truly significant, for muscle mass in particular, are when one is either 1. not exercising, or 2. taking anabolic steroids (which can destroy you inside and out).

Testosterone (even at a very high levels) does NOT (in the vast majority of cases) lead to hair follicle miniaturization outside the mechanism of DHT conversion through increased substrate resourcing. The receptor site at the hair follicle is only a lose fit for the testosterone-molecule, while the paracrine DHT with the it's additional hydrogen-bond glues itself to it. The slight difference in chemical structures increases DHT's affinity for the androgen receptor two-fold and decreases the rate of dissociation five-fold relatiove to testosterone. This also leads to major differences in protein-synthesis down the line.

If you block out at least 60% or more of the DHT conversion through Finasteride/Dutasteride (5-AR-inhibitors), you will stop hairloss in 80-90% of patients, regardless of their T-levels.

I also dont agree with your point that one should "ignore" their test-levels when there is abundant evidence that there is a collective decline of testosterone levels in the general population, while we also know that there are various benefits of keeping it in a high-normal to high range through all stages of life.

 

[Schizophonia]

1 hour ago, undeather said:

Testosterone (even at a very high levels) does NOT (in the vast majority of cases) lead to hair follicle miniaturization outside the mechanism of DHT conversion through increased substrate resourcing. The receptor site at the hair follicle is only a lose fit for the testosterone-molecule, while the paracrine DHT with the it's additional hydrogen-bond glues itself to it. The slight difference in chemical structures increases DHT's affinity for the androgen receptor two-fold and decreases the rate of dissociation five-fold relatiove to testosterone. This also leads to major differences in protein-synthesis down the line.

If you block out at least 60% or more of the DHT conversion through Finasteride/Dutasteride (5-AR-inhibitors), you will stop hairloss in 80-90% of patients, regardless of their T-levels.

I also dont agree with your point that one should "ignore" their test-levels when there is abundant evidence that there is a collective decline of testosterone levels in the general population, while we also know that there are various benefits of keeping it in a high-normal to high range through all stages of life.

 

Highly androgenic steroids should create alopecia? (tren, ment, masteron…)
 

I have only tested my DHT once and it was above the upper range, yet I have a very thick and curly patch of hair.

[Schizophonia]

@undeather

Isn’t E2 “androgenic” in men after all?

Many people on exemestane lose their libido, aggression, cognitive abilities, their beard grows slower and they develop joint cracks.
 

[undeather]

1 hour ago, Schizophonia said:

Highly androgenic steroids should create alopecia? (tren, ment, masteron…)
 

I have only tested my DHT once and it was above the upper range, yet I have a very thick and curly patch of hair.

The propensity of your hair follicles to get fucked by DHT is genetically set. 
Everyone has DHT, but only a few unlucky individuals start losing their 20s/30s. This is not a binary question either - your genetic blueprint kinda sets a "timer"for that kind of thing. Some will still have a full head of hair in their 70s, while most people will have to deal with thinning through the later stages of their lifes. 

If you have the genotype for "DHT fucks hair follucle", anything androgenic (i.e steroids) will increase the absoluite amount of androgenic substrate and the total amount of DHT - therefore it will speed up hair loss as well. Note that not every bodybuilder suffers from hair loss. Some of them still have a full head of hair after years of substace abuse. (Jay Cuttler for example)

 

1 hour ago, Schizophonia said:

@undeather

Isn’t E2 “androgenic” in men after all?

Many people on exemestane lose their libido, aggression, cognitive abilities, their beard grows slower and they develop joint cracks.
 

E2 is basically the antagonist to any androgenic hormone. 
Note that the body is a complex system, so even if you use an aromatase inhibitor like exemestane in male bodybuilders, it could come to paradox side effects which would indicate a loss of male virility. Equillibria between sex hormones seem to be as important as total numbers!

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, undeather said:

Everyone has DHT, but only a few unlucky individuals start losing their 20s/30s.

Me

[Schizophonia]

On 02/10/2023 at 3:42 AM, Jason Actualization said:

Did you get DHT and estradiol measured concurrently?

What time of day did you have your blood drawn, and is that the same as you have historically?

I only measured testosterone and LH. The last time I measured E2 and DHT, both were in the middle of the range, a little above.

On 06/10/2023 at 0:02 PM, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

I've been on Mirtazapine in the past, it was described to me primarily as an anti-depressant. I wonder if there is a link between the serotonin level and the testosterone level of a person.

5HT2A decreases testosterone, but Mirtazapine blocks it and increases 5HT1A signaling, which actually decreases cortisol, overall serotonin release, and increases dopamine release.
Probably Mirtazapine actually decreases Prolactin (in men), unlike SSRIs.

On 06/10/2023 at 0:02 PM, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

I will have to read into it, but it's an interesting idea. I'd still be mindful of the possibility that your increased testosterone level could've come from something else.

Maybe

On 06/10/2023 at 0:02 PM, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

There is a chance of a false correlation here. Chronic stress, for example, can lead to elevated cortisol levels, which can negatively impact testosterone production.

Precisely, Mirtazapine decrease cortisol ?

On 06/10/2023 at 0:02 PM, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

I don't know how rapidly the testosterone level of a person fluctuates, but a few stressful night might not "kill your gains" entirely, so to speak.

How well has the Mirtazapine affected your mood in general?

Mood is generally good, although I generally feel lazier.

 

[Schizophonia]

On 06/10/2023 at 2:36 PM, Carl-Richard said:

Me

Simple !

Dutasteride + Minox + light doses of cyproheptadine.

If sexual sides effects -> Enclomiphene citrate or HCG monotherapy

Edited October 8, 2023 by Schizophonia

[Carl-Richard]

25 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

Simple !

Dutasteride + Minox + light doses of cyproheptadine.

If sexual sides effects -> Enclomiphene citrate or HCG monotherapy

Heh. I don't even drink coffee ?

[Schizophonia]

1 minute ago, Carl-Richard said:

Heh. I don't even drink coffee ?

why ? 

I suspect it's a joke that I didn't get, lol.

[Carl-Richard]

47 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

why ? 

I suspect it's a joke that I didn't get, lol.

I generally try to avoid things my body doesn't need.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Schizophonia]

5 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

I generally try to avoid things my body doesn't need.

why ? ?

Unless you are already in a precarious situation, why not take advantage and play?
You will have plenty of time to suffer in the future, even more in a future life where you will be a Ukrainian under the holodomor lol.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Schizophonia

[Carl-Richard]

8 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

why ? ?

Unless you are already in a precarious situation, why not take advantage and play?
You will have plenty of time to suffer in the future, even more in a future life where you will be a Ukrainian under the holodomor lol.

I'll wait for the miracle cure with zero possible side effects invented by some AI