Why My Hand Cannot Grasp Itself

[vibv]

1 minute ago, Breakingthewall said:

Learn and understand is nothing. You already know and understand everything, since you are the infinite. The you who wants to know more and understand deeper is an illusion. Everything that self can know or understand is nothing because understanding is finite. There is no infinite understanding, there is being, which is the same as understanding but without structure. understanding without structure is being. Understanding with structure is a finite structured mind, so it cannot encompass anything, it is false, a pale image.

Being is different from understanding or experiencing.

As long as you don't confuse one with the other it's all good. You can do both.

[Breakingthewall]

Just now, vibv said:

Being is different from understanding or experiencing.

As long as you don't confuse one with the other it's all good. You can do both.

Understanding is an illusion. You cannot understand anything because the you that wants to understand is an illusion. Reality does not need to understand anything, you are not an envoy of reality to, with your sharp mind, understand it. reality is understood well enough to create the infinite cosmos with its infinite cycles. Do you want to reach level 200? so that? if the level there is is infinite and that is already the case. The only thing you can do is open yourself to infinity and forget any ambition to know or understand because it is either total or zero. Is it going to be total as long as you are a human? Otherwise it will be zero. there are no levels.

[vibv]

7 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Understanding is an illusion. You cannot understand anything because the you that wants to understand is an illusion. Reality does not need to understand anything, you are not an envoy of reality to, with your sharp mind, understand it. reality is understood well enough to create the infinite cosmos with its infinite cycles. Do you want to reach level 200? so that? if the level there is is infinite and that is already the case. The only thing you can do is open yourself to infinity and forget any ambition to know or understand because it is either total or zero. Is it going to be total as long as you are a human? Otherwise it will be zero. there are no levels.

Yeah you realize that there's nothing to achieve at some point. And then.. you do it anyway. Because why not.

That idea is completely silly to think that you have to reach some obscure, almost unobtainable, point and then .. your life finally makes sense. Life wants to be LIVED.

When I came to that point I realized that it is completely silly nonsense. That's the great joke: There's nothing to do, never was. And then you do it anyway.

And by forgetting all those silly ideas you finally start to really live and experience joy and love and sadness and anger in a way and intensity you never did before. That's when you realize: There's only BEAUTY and LIFE is amazing! It's you! You're beautiful!

Drop your silly games.

Edited October 3, 2023 by vibv

[Breakingthewall]

8 minutes ago, vibv said:

When I came to that point I realized that it is completely silly nonsense. That's the great joke: There's nothing to do, never was. And then you do it anyway.

For me it is not like that but maybe Im wrong. For me there is something essential to do: openness. I perceive that I am involved in a cycle and I am completing a stage. My mission is to settle into this experience, open myself to it completely, and open myself to the infinite now as much as I can. Perhaps this sense of mission is wrong because it implies a compulsion to go further. more opening, until reaching a total opening. What I said before about understanding has a qualification, openness is in some way understanding. it is silent and inarticulate, indecipherable by the software of the structured mind. If openness can go further, that understanding can also go further.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[vibv]

@Breakingthewall Sounds great Keep going mate! (I don't mean this ironically)

We all have our own paths and every path has its completely unique beauty.

[Breakingthewall]

Just now, vibv said:

@Breakingthewall Sounds great Keep going mate! (I don't mean this ironically)

We all have our own paths and every path has its completely unique beauty.

Yeah but It is easy to take the wrong path and get trapped in your mind, it is a sticky web, it hooks you in one place or another. The path is not a path, it is you trapped in a spider web believing that you are moving forward on a path, until one day you let go of the spider web. It is an enigma that requires passion. The traps of the mind are very subtle, you have to be totally honest with yourself to see them.

[vibv]

1 minute ago, Breakingthewall said:

Yeah but It is easy to take the wrong path and get trapped in your mind, it is a sticky web, it hooks you in one place or another. The path is not a path, it is you trapped in a spider web believing that you are moving forward on a path, until one day you let go of the spider web. It is an enigma that requires passion. The traps of the mind are very subtle, you have to be totally honest with yourself to see them.

Yeah, that's what I mean when I say path. Every trap you walk in is exactly as it should be. To get out of a trap is a huge learning experience, and everybody needs different ones because of their unique personality structure.

You have to really understand the trap deeply to get out of it  

[Breakingthewall]

5 minutes ago, vibv said:

You have to really understand the trap deeply to get out of it  

Exactly, you have to understand the trap totally, The trap has several levels, it is a work of art as a trap. a labyrinth. But there is a exist of the labyrinth: drop the self

Edited October 3, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Osaid]

Knowledge, concept, imagination, and thoughts are as fundamental and significant to reality as the smell of a flower. It seems otherwise because of your survival bias as a human, and also simply because you don't understand what you are, and thus you don't understand what God is.

Good luck making a dualism into "Absolute Understanding" as you say though. If that's how you want to frame it to yourself then go ahead.

[Breakingthewall]

10 minutes ago, Osaid said:

Good luck making a dualism into "Absolute Understanding" as you say though. If that's how you want to frame it to yourself then go ahead.

For example, if you are in a state without structure, of total openness, you cannot know: I am immortal. It is impossible because that implies a self, and the possibility of being mortal vs immortal. Those are constructions of the mind, you can think of them from the finite state, but not from the infinite state. In the infinite state there is no structure. there is no opposition or definition.  but then you go back to the finite state and you understand things. It's just that those things that you say don't mean anything because they are finite. It is difficult, leo says that there is a deep non-conceptual understanding, and I think it is possible, maybe tomorrow I will reach a degree of openness that makes me see what is like that, or maybe Leo is wrong, a misunderstanding of reality. Would be great if he's right and more clarity and depth is possible. 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Osaid]

19 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

For example, if you are in a state without structure, of total openness, you cannot know: I am immortal. It is impossible because that implies a self, and the possibility of being mortal vs immortal. Those are constructions of the mind, you can think of them from the finite state, but not from the infinite state. In the infinite state there is no structure. there is no opposition or definition.  but then you go back to the finite state and you understand things. It's just that those things that you say don't mean anything because they are finite. It is difficult, leo says that there is a deep non-conceptual understanding, and I think it is possible, maybe tomorrow I will reach a degree of openness that makes me see what is like that, or maybe Leo is wrong, a misunderstanding of reality

That's good.

To expand on that, states of consciousness are not giving insights. They are not "more truthful" or anything like that, that is a dualistic anthropomorphism. They are simply just putting you in a state of consciousness which forces you to dissolve your previous beliefs and identities and replace them with ones that "fit" that experience. You are not gonna have a thought which says "I am a human" or "I am a piece of shit" in a state of love and unity for example, instead you're gonna have thoughts like "I am God" or "I am one" or "I am alone", because your identities and beliefs have to calibrate themselves to the experience. In the same way you're not gonna think "I am seeing the color red" when in your experience you are seeing the color blue.

Notice that you cannot be wrong about anything if you simply stop generating beliefs and identities right now. Your direct experience is not gonna be wrong about itself. "More insights" are created only through a dualistic relationship to beliefs and identities that contradict experience.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Osaid

[Ajax]

23 minutes ago, Osaid said:

Knowledge, concept, imagination, and thoughts are as fundamental and significant to reality as the smell of a flower. It seems otherwise because of your survival bias as a human, and also simply because you don't understand what you are, and thus you don't understand what God is.

Reality is just sets of agreements for the sake of mortal survival. 

None of those things are a definition of YOU. If they are not what you are, how can they be fundamental? 

[Inliytened1]

1 hour ago, vibv said:

But there's a maximum capacity you're able to handle as a human. You'd have to die to go beyond that.

Precisely.   And you can do that.  

Edited October 3, 2023 by Inliytened1

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, vibv said:

 

 

 

35 minutes ago, Osaid said:

Notice that you cannot be wrong about anything if you simply stop generating beliefs and identities right now. Your direct experience is not gonna be wrong about itself. "More insights" are created only through a dualistic relationship to beliefs and identities that contradict experience.

 

35 minutes ago, Osaid said:

 

exactly, the only real understanding is being. The whole structure attached to it means absolutely nothing. is this scary? does it make us sad? Is it too... empty? To the ego this seems like real shit. he wants a monumental structure. Just being seems limited to him, but it's the other way around. If the self dissapear, being is now revealed as unlimited. but the moment you interpret it, it is limited.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Osaid]

41 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

being is now revealed as unlimited. but the moment you interpret it, it is limited.

Yes, which is why it feels bad to interpret sometimes. You might view yourself as something limited, which turns that view into a "threat" against your limitless nature. And this causes fear, fast heartbeat, etc. because it is threatening the "you" that exists inside your thoughts. Metaphysical fears seem particularly sticky and inescapable because you have recontextualized the entire structure of your experience as something that is attacking you and threatening you, similar to how an actual physical threat like a bear would. And of course, "you" are always in experience, so a perpetual fight or flight is experienced until you see past the structure of whatever you are imagining and consequently stop interpreting your experience.

There is no "feeling of being empty", being empty is not a feeling, in the same way that an empty cup is not a feeling. 

You are feeling fear, adrenaline, fast heartbeat, and whatever other biological symptoms, in response to a thought ABOUT yourself.

You never ever experience an "empty cup", you only experience a cup which exists in front of you, and then a thought that imagines a cup which isn't empty. The emptiness is inferred through thought but not experienced.

On a similar note, you never truly experience "being alone as God", that is mostly just a maladaptive identity formed to fit a certain psychedelic experience or state of consciousness.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Osaid

[Breakingthewall]

21 minutes ago, Osaid said:

On a similar note, you never truly experience "being alone as God", that is mostly just a maladaptive identity formed to fit a certain psychedelic experience or state of consciousness.

Its difficult to say because maybe those who say that they have had that non-conceptual vision in a mystical state and what they say is the best way to express what they experience, or perhaps they are inventing by superimposing stories from their mind on the experience. For me personally, nothing makes me say: I am God imagining reality.

[Osaid]

3 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

best way to express what they experience

My point is that it is just an expression, and that "being alone" is never experienced in the truest sense, only inferred. Just like the empty cup.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Osaid

[gettoefl]

10 hours ago, Osaid said:

My point is that it is just an expression, and that "being alone" is never experienced in the truest sense, only inferred. Just like the empty cup.

replacing god is alone by god alone is, is helpful and means all that exists is god-ness with nothing else trying to infiltrate

structure is division distinction duality ... and so there isn't any

Quote

To identify oneself with the body and yet to seek happiness is like attempting to cross a river on the back of an alligator. The body identity is due to extroversion and the wandering of the mind. To continue in that state will only keep one in an endless tangle, and there will be no peace. Seek your source, merge in the Self and remain all alone. Ramana Maharshi

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by gettoefl

[Breakingthewall]

The issue of understanding is confusing because the one who wants to deepen understanding is the conceptual mind, the self. reality is already total understanding. A tree is infinite understanding, otherwise it could not be a tree. the linear understanding of the conceptual mind is just a function of reality, like photosynthesis. Only this conceptual mind thinks that it has the mission to understand, when if it turns off, the understanding would be total.

The problem is that complete understanding cannot be translated into the linear language of the conceptual mind. in fact, the functioning of the conceptual mind veils total understanding. It continues to exist, but in the background, veiled by the structured functioning of the conceptual mind. There is no evolution of the conceptual mind towards truth, there is the mind's understanding of its place, and the mind's ability to depart completely. then total understanding happens. but you can't grab it with your mind.

Thinking that you can evolve in understanding of the absolute is a mistake, your understanding will always be either limited or total. There is no middle ground. What is possible is to evolve in understanding what is relative in order to be able to deactivate it at will.

[An young being]

For those who want to logically understand reality, there is science. For those who want to experience reality as it is, there is Spirituality. If we try to use our stupid single logical brain to understand the experience, it might lead to delusions, if not carefully thought and deciphered the experience.

 Eventually, science might reach a point where it could try to understand the experience, and it could reach upto the last point before the experience as far as allowed by our brain or God or whatever, but going beyond that is not possible in my opinion, as long as we are human.