Godel's Theorem Applies To Awakening!!

[r0ckyreed]

What is awakening then if there will always be parts of reality that you will be asleep to?

By that definition, then I would be awake because I have realized no-self and oneness. But the standards of awakening have changed since the Buddha. 

If your awakening isn’t complete (which I claim complete awakening is impossible), then it is relative. You are awake compared to what everyone else has discovered.

If every human on earth realized what God is, then would everyone be equally awake or equally asleep? If one person out of all realizes something more than the rest of the herd, then we would deem that person awake and everyone else asleep.

The Buddha wasn’t awake. He just had a deep insight into self, suffering, and reality. If we say the Buddha is awake, then I would be called awake too because I have had similar insights even before I heard about his teachings.

But the thing is that even though I have the insights into no-self, suffering, etc., I know I am not awake because I don’t feel awake. Sure, when I had the discovery, I was hugging every tree, and kissing the dirt. But all of that is a memory and imagination now. 

Another reason why I claim awakening is an illusion is because if you had an awakening but aren’t awake right this moment, then your awakening is as imaginary as Santa Clause. If you aren’t conscious of God right now, then you aren’t conscious of God at all! It doesn’t matter whether you had awakenings in the past because the past is nothing but imagination within imagination, a dream within the Dream.

Edited September 27, 2023 by r0ckyreed

[vibv]

31 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

If every human on earth realized what God is, then would everyone be equally awake or equally asleep? If one person out of all realizes something more than the rest of the herd, then we would deem that person awake and everyone else asleep.

It gets easier to get to the same level the more people awake to that level. Deeper Awakenings than ever before will happen with that, too.

I also think we as humanity as a whole are awakening more and more (which is essentially what I said before with different words). Let's say you're not less awake than the Buddha – that is definitely possible and that doesn't devalue it at all IMO.

We are more awake than we were in our PAST. But you also COULD awaken much more deeply now.

Edited September 27, 2023 by vibv

[Leo Gura]

14 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

But I still think that even if I did things to raise my consciousness, the problem that I have presented will still remain for me to tackle.

No they won't.

You are God and this discussion is nonsense.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Razard86]

7 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

What is awakening then if there will always be parts of reality that you will be asleep to?

By that definition, then I would be awake because I have realized no-self and oneness. But the standards of awakening have changed since the Buddha. 

If your awakening isn’t complete (which I claim complete awakening is impossible), then it is relative. You are awake compared to what everyone else has discovered.

If every human on earth realized what God is, then would everyone be equally awake or equally asleep? If one person out of all realizes something more than the rest of the herd, then we would deem that person awake and everyone else asleep.

The Buddha wasn’t awake. He just had a deep insight into self, suffering, and reality. If we say the Buddha is awake, then I would be called awake too because I have had similar insights even before I heard about his teachings.

But the thing is that even though I have the insights into no-self, suffering, etc., I know I am not awake because I don’t feel awake. Sure, when I had the discovery, I was hugging every tree, and kissing the dirt. But all of that is a memory and imagination now. 

Another reason why I claim awakening is an illusion is because if you had an awakening but aren’t awake right this moment, then your awakening is as imaginary as Santa Clause. If you aren’t conscious of God right now, then you aren’t conscious of God at all! It doesn’t matter whether you had awakenings in the past because the past is nothing but imagination within imagination, a dream within the Dream.

Look just live from a Non-Dual State sober. Then you'll be awake. Are there depths to awakening? Sure. But having insights isn't enough. You need to live from that state. Your ego just wants to stay in duality and claim that insights are enough. That is taking the easy way out. Live from a non-dual state. What is the freaking point of this work if you are going to choose to stay in a state of separation? Might as well just go do therapy like everybody else if that is the point and live in separation. 

But if you are going to walk the path of the end of separation why not go all the way?

[Yimpa]

You are imagining that Leo is the only one Awake, that Osaid is Enlightened, that Awakening is something other than Yourself, and that Razard86 is an edible (just look at that damn profile pic).

WAKE UP BUDDY!!

And for those I missed, don’t take it personally. You’re also God 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Yimpa

[r0ckyreed]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

No they won't.

You are God and this discussion is nonsense.

Okay. But think of all of your awakenings. Aren’t those imaginary? If you aren’t conscious of the Truth right now, then it is imagination and not actuality. You don’t have an actual awakening unless you do.

I am just trying to understand how awakening and psychedelic states are somehow excluded from Godels Theorem.

Edited September 28, 2023 by r0ckyreed

[Osaid]

11 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

But think of all of your awakenings. Aren’t those imaginary? If you aren’t conscious of the Truth right now, then it is imagination and not actuality. You don’t have an actual awakening unless you do.

Instead of the classic "Can you point your finger to where you are located in experience?"

We need a "Can you point your finger to where the alien squirrel is located in experience?" for Leo.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Osaid

[Danioover9000]

@r0ckyreed

On 27/09/2023 at 3:06 AM, r0ckyreed said:

Leo's blog post on Godel's Incompleteness Theorem is what I have been trying to state but did not have the words. 

I don't think anybody is gonna read or respond to this post and that is okay. I am going to state my case anyways to help myself articulate what I have become conscious of.

My whole claim is that Awakening/Enlightenment is an illusion, self-deception, and does not exist.

This is because when you have an insight or awakening, you are assuming that your insight or awakening is true and not full of self-deception. And of course, this goes on to infinity.

Another main reason is because no matter what you become conscious of, there will always be something greater that you could become conscious of, and it goes on forever. 

This means that any insights you have will always be partial and will never grasp the whole of reality.

Your awakening/enlightenment is like an infinite regress. No matter what you become conscious of, you will never reach omniscience - complete understanding of reality. There is no way because no matter what you become conscious of, there will always be greater aspects of reality that you are unconscious of and things that are assumed to be true but never proven.

You cannot prove and demonstrate to me nor yourself that you have had an awakening. How could you possibly know whether any insight you have could be classified as an ''awakening'' or as a ''normal insight'' or as ''self-deception or false insight?''

I became conscious of this after Leo deleted his Solipsism video and then posted his Infinite Gods video. The deeper you go and the higher your consciousness goes, the more you start to untangle and realize that your previous insights were full of self-deception. The self-deception is infinite, and you are still in denial of that. The self-deception has to be infinite for you to exist at all. If God could understand and awaken to itself, then it could not exist at all because existence is always prior to knowledge in the same way that truth is prior to proof.

Contemplate this. Awakening cannot exist because if you claim that it takes 200 5me0 trips to awaken, then I could argue and always raise the bar that at 2000 trips, you will realize that 200 trips wasn't awakening, and then at 20,000 trips, you would realize that 2000 trips wasn't awakening, and so on.

Whatever your method is for discerning truth from falsehood, that is a system, and Godel's Theorem still applies to that! I wish more people would be conscious of what I am conscious of right now. This is my best attempt at communicating this insight I have had into the nature of insight and awakening.

It is so easy to confuse a profound insight with awakening. They aren't the same. And who is to say what is ''profound,'' ''awakening,'' or ''false''? Awakening is just another self-deception. "Just when you think you have solved the maze, that is when you have put yourself deeper in the maze." - Leo Gura (Life is A Maze). There is no way to escape the maze because that is what you are! You cannot escape from yourself because there you are! Ta-Da!

I want you to take away from this post that Awakening/Enlightenment applies to Godel's Theorem, which means that you will never reach the end of understanding/insight/awakening. This does not mean you should give up spirituality and awakening. It just means that you realize that full awakening won't happen just like counting to infinity won't happen. (News Flash, Awakening = Infinity!) This means that you strive to do your best as a human being. Reach the highest level you can whether that is level 100, 1000, or 100000000. It won't matter in the end because 100 is the same distance to infinity as is 1000000000. But you will be a much wiser human being, and at the end of the day, it all comes down to your goals in life in what you believe is worth striving for.

   What do you mean? So basically incompleteness theorem disproves and discredits Leo's spiritual insights? So no infinity and no awakening, acfording to you, that feels hateful to Leo?

   Why do you do this? Why do you mistake awakening for incomplete theorum? There's a good reason why that Solipsism video, and blog post was taken down, and why he brought down the Israel/Palestine conflict blog post, it's because of misunderstandings like this.

   Wait for it, Leo might bring his blog post down because another user is misunderstanding incompleteness theroum with AWAKENING and attacking him over it. Who wants to bet the blog post might get taken down? 

[Leo Gura]

56 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

Okay. But think of all of your awakenings. Aren’t those imaginary? If you aren’t conscious of the Truth right now, then it is imagination and not actuality. You don’t have an actual awakening unless you do.

I am just trying to understand how awakening and psychedelic states are somehow excluded from Godels Theorem.

1) You are misapplying Godel's theorem. Godel points to Infinity. Awakening is Infinity.

2) Truth is not any state of consciousness, it is all states of consciousness.

I'm cognizant of Truth at any time I want because it makes no difference what state I'm in.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Razard86]

9 hours ago, Yimpa said:

You are imagining that Leo is the only one Awake, that Osaid is Enlightened, that Awakening is something other than Yourself, and that Razard86 is an edible (just look at that damn profile pic).

WAKE UP BUDDY!!

And for those I missed, don’t take it personally. You’re also God 

Dang how I become an edible? *Ahem* This pic is the heart chakra sign....think of it as a subliminal message to all who see to remember their heart chakra.

[Razard86]

3 hours ago, Osaid said:

Instead of the classic "Can you point your finger to where you are located in experience?"

We need a "Can you point your finger to where the alien squirrel is located in experience?" for Leo.

^^^^ He's also called himself an alien saint too. Don't forget that one.

 

[Yimpa]

1 hour ago, Razard86 said:

Dang how I become an edible? *Ahem* This pic is the heart chakra sign....think of it as a subliminal message to all who see to remember their heart chakra.

Yeah… it’s an edible 

[r0ckyreed]

12 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

1) You are misapplying Godel's theorem. Godel points to Infinity. Awakening is Infinity.

2) Truth is not any state of consciousness, it is all states of consciousness.

I'm cognizant of Truth at any time I want because it makes no difference what state I'm in.

Thanks for the clarification. Truth is all states, but some states keep you asleep from truth or awaken to it. 

But you’ve even said that the traditional Buddhist meditation awakening to no-self is only one type of awakening and God-Realization is a greater level of awakening. So, who is to say that you won’t awaken to something even higher and even higher that contradicts your previous awakenings? The deeper you go, the more you awaken to. You’ve awakened to Absolute Solipsism but then you had a new awakening to Infinity of Gods that contradicts it. If you just stopped the work at Absolute Solipsism, your mind would deceive you into thinking you have found the Whole Truth, when in reality, you will always have more things to awaken to since reality is infinite. Or maybe it is that you have awakened to the Whole Truth but your perspectives to that are changing with each awakening?

[Osaid]

You are not "awakenings."

You are not "deeper understandings."

It's just fundamentally not what you are. If you deny this, you must consult memory and concepts to do so.

It's really really simple. The human mind makes it needlessly complex because the human mind is complex.

Don't focus on the results of enlightenment. Don't even think of it as anything spiritual because it's not even that. It's just a recognition of what you are, then you can literally do whatever you want after. OF COURSE it is possible to recognize what you are, and this recognition has nothing to do with understanding anything or thinking about anything, it is experiential. There is "something" here. Enlightenment is just a pointer towards that "something." It's not some ideology or philosophy or way of looking at things. If you think it is, then that isn't "it." 

Also, anyone can become "enlightened." It could happen immediately right now. A thought could trigger it. A random event could trigger it. Or even nothing could trigger it. It's not something that takes understanding or context. The only context you need is your current experience, because it is your experience, and therefore it is YOU. If you just take time to look at your experience long enough, you might notice it, and then that is enlightenment. It's not something that you're gonna "build up to" or experience far off into the future. It's a very simple experiential recontextualization. "Unenlightenment" is a human phenomenon that occurs from our unique capability to imagine things strongly.

It's not an "end" of anything (since when can experience end itself?). It's not whatever you think it is. All your ideas about it are just spiritual dogma and ideologies you've picked up. 

Psychedelics fundamentally have nothing to do with understanding what you are, they aren't going to make YOU "more" YOU. The "clarity" gained from psychedelics is simply a change in experience which forces you to change your beliefs ABOUT yourself. If you're forced into a state of oneness and love, you are not going to have thoughts that say "I am a piece of shit" because that state of consciousness just completely contradicts that belief about yourself. You are instead going to have thoughts like "I am God" or "I am everything" or "I am consciousness" because those beliefs don't contradict that experience. As an analogy, if you have a dream that you are a kangaroo, you are not gonna have a thought which says "I am human" during that dream, because the metaphysics of that dream state straight up contradict that belief/identity. This is also what psychedelics are doing, and this is what is actually happening when you say that psychedelics are "giving you clarity." Reality has no feature where it "gives you insights." That is inferred. Psychedelics are NOT creating states that are more "true", they are creating states which contradict previous beliefs you had about reality, and thus it dissolves those beliefs, and you interpret this as: "Oh my God, this is the highest and most true state ever! All my human delusions don't even exist here!"

[Breakingthewall]

The whole awakening issue is very confusing. For me there is a first step that is to get out of the conceptual mind and realize what you really are. not realizing it, but remembering it because you had forgotten it due to comparative conceptual activity. When you were 3 months old you knew it, also when you were a fetus. Animals know this, even insects, cells, objects. It is the awareness of reality, of the now. It is not definable, it is the essence of reality, what everything is. Once you get out of the conceptual madness and can focus on the now, like a dog or a rat (they call this enlightenment it seems) you can begin to really perceive, to realize the true potential that the human construct allows. This construction is higher than any other known, so the depth and height of its perception and understanding are enormous, but since humans have been absorbed in its conceptual aspect, little is known about this. Those of us who manage to free our minds have everything to see. There is not limit

[Yimpa]

13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

1) You are misapplying Godel's theorem. Godel points to Infinity. Awakening is Infinity.

2) Truth is not any state of consciousness, it is all states of consciousness.

I'm cognizant of Truth at any time I want because it makes no difference what state I'm in.

Okay, this helps me better understand why you are gung-ho about calling out enlightenment and nondual teachings. 

Enlightened people confuse enlightenment for Truth, when actually enlightenment is a state of consciousness out of infinite states. It’s confusing a peanut for a peanut, instead of seeing peanut as God (again, peanut being one out of Infinity).

[Leo Gura]

56 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

Thanks for the clarification. Truth is all states, but some states keep you asleep from truth or awaken to it. 

But you’ve even said that the traditional Buddhist meditation awakening to no-self is only one type of awakening and God-Realization is a greater level of awakening. So, who is to say that you won’t awaken to something even higher and even higher that contradicts your previous awakenings?

God/Infinity is never contradicted. What happens is you realize God ever more deeply, and you realize more nuanced facets of God.

56 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

The deeper you go, the more you awaken to. You’ve awakened to Absolute Solipsism but then you had a new  awakening to Infinity of Gods that contradicts it.

It doesn't contradict it. It's just a deeper, more nuanced understanding of what God entails.

First you realize God. Then the question still remains What is God? There are many layers to what God is, which you can keep unraveling. God can also manifest itself in 100s of different ways.

You can undertake a deep study of God, just like you can spend years dissecting a frog in a lab. The frog will always be a frog, but you can gain a lot of new insight into the frog, looking at it from various angles. Until eventually you develop a very deep understanding of frogs.

[r0ckyreed]

20 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

God/Infinity is never contradicted. What happens is you realize God ever more deeply, and you realize more nuanced facets of God.

It doesn't contradict it. It's just a deeper, more nuanced understanding of what God entails.

First you realize God. Then the question still remains What is God? There are many layers to what God is, which you can keep unraveling. God can also manifest itself in 100s of different ways.

You can undertake a deep study of God, just like you can spend years dissecting a frog in a lab. The frog will always be a frog, but you can gain a lot of new insight into the frog, looking at it from various angles. Until eventually you develop a very deep understanding of frogs.

I got it! Thanks! You can lock this thread.  

[Water by the River]

19 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

God/Infinity is never contradicted. What happens is you realize God ever more deeply, and you realize more nuanced facets of God.

It doesn't contradict it. It's just a deeper, more nuanced understanding of what God entails.

First you realize God. Then the question still remains What is God? There are many layers to what God is, which you can keep unraveling. God can also manifest itself in 100s of different ways.

You can undertake a deep study of God, just like you can spend years dissecting a frog in a lab. The frog will always be a frog, but you can gain a lot of new insight into the frog, looking at it from various angles. Until eventually you develop a very deep understanding of frogs.

Funny. Suddenly, Awakenings n+1 sound like more insights into the various facets/angles of the frog/God/Absolute Reality.

And God Realization sound like Full Enlightenment. With Full Enlightenment having the benefit of sobre and permanent deep identity transformation, and its resulting access to the bliss of Absolute Reality.

For divine/celestial perception after Enlightenement (or, understanding more of the relative facets of the frog), see for example Harri Aalto, David Buckland, David Spangler, and many others. In all Traditions.

[Water by the River]

1 hour ago, Yimpa said:

Okay, this helps me better understand why you are gung-ho about calling out enlightenment and nondual teachings. 

Enlightened people confuse enlightenment for Truth, when actually enlightenment is a state of consciousness out of infinite states. It’s confusing a peanut for a peanut, instead of seeing peanut as God (again, peanut being one out of Infinity).

. I just love your posts. Full Enlightenment IS realizing the always here Truth, or ones own true infinite Being. What ones True Self and that of Reality IS.

That (Full Enlightenment) happens in an awakened state, in which every form/arising/i-feeling/i-thought and every appearance of the "outer" world is directly and literally realized as mere appearance, happening in the Infinite Pure Impersonal boundless Being that Reality/You truly is. Which  is the always here Reality. So not a state but Absolute Reality/God/True Nature.

Afterwards its accessible and always right here, since the illusion filters have all been transcended, and "hard" boundless timeless and very empty nondual states ("or awakened states) have replaced the previous normal life with my center here/outer world/others there (duality), and the world appearing solid/external "out there". Replaced with groundless mere appearance ("clear light" in Dzogchen) arising in nondual way in infinite nondual being.

And some quite amazing celestial/divine perception on how all of that if manifested from Pure Silent Infinite Consciouness to subtle realities (Awakenings/facets n+1) to gross material world  and so on can develop afterwards. But for that, others are way more progressed than I am. See Harri Aalto for example. But all of that is form/manifestation. Not the essence of Absolute Reality/true You, but appearance arising in it, as IT.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Water by the River