Godel's Theorem Applies To Awakening!!

[r0ckyreed]

Leo's blog post on Godel's Incompleteness Theorem is what I have been trying to state but did not have the words. 

I don't think anybody is gonna read or respond to this post and that is okay. I am going to state my case anyways to help myself articulate what I have become conscious of.

My whole claim is that Awakening/Enlightenment is an illusion, self-deception, and does not exist.

This is because when you have an insight or awakening, you are assuming that your insight or awakening is true and not full of self-deception. And of course, this goes on to infinity.

Another main reason is because no matter what you become conscious of, there will always be something greater that you could become conscious of, and it goes on forever. 

This means that any insights you have will always be partial and will never grasp the whole of reality.

Your awakening/enlightenment is like an infinite regress. No matter what you become conscious of, you will never reach omniscience - complete understanding of reality. There is no way because no matter what you become conscious of, there will always be greater aspects of reality that you are unconscious of and things that are assumed to be true but never proven.

You cannot prove and demonstrate to me nor yourself that you have had an awakening. How could you possibly know whether any insight you have could be classified as an ''awakening'' or as a ''normal insight'' or as ''self-deception or false insight?''

I became conscious of this after Leo deleted his Solipsism video and then posted his Infinite Gods video. The deeper you go and the higher your consciousness goes, the more you start to untangle and realize that your previous insights were full of self-deception. The self-deception is infinite, and you are still in denial of that. The self-deception has to be infinite for you to exist at all. If God could understand and awaken to itself, then it could not exist at all because existence is always prior to knowledge in the same way that truth is prior to proof.

Contemplate this. Awakening cannot exist because if you claim that it takes 200 5me0 trips to awaken, then I could argue and always raise the bar that at 2000 trips, you will realize that 200 trips wasn't awakening, and then at 20,000 trips, you would realize that 2000 trips wasn't awakening, and so on.

Whatever your method is for discerning truth from falsehood, that is a system, and Godel's Theorem still applies to that! I wish more people would be conscious of what I am conscious of right now. This is my best attempt at communicating this insight I have had into the nature of insight and awakening.

It is so easy to confuse a profound insight with awakening. They aren't the same. And who is to say what is ''profound,'' ''awakening,'' or ''false''? Awakening is just another self-deception. "Just when you think you have solved the maze, that is when you have put yourself deeper in the maze." - Leo Gura (Life is A Maze). There is no way to escape the maze because that is what you are! You cannot escape from yourself because there you are! Ta-Da!

I want you to take away from this post that Awakening/Enlightenment applies to Godel's Theorem, which means that you will never reach the end of understanding/insight/awakening. This does not mean you should give up spirituality and awakening. It just means that you realize that full awakening won't happen just like counting to infinity won't happen. (News Flash, Awakening = Infinity!) This means that you strive to do your best as a human being. Reach the highest level you can whether that is level 100, 1000, or 100000000. It won't matter in the end because 100 is the same distance to infinity as is 1000000000. But you will be a much wiser human being, and at the end of the day, it all comes down to your goals in life in what you believe is worth striving for.

Edited September 27, 2023 by r0ckyreed

[Leo Gura]

Except Awakening does exist.

Stop assuming that it's final.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Razard86]

21 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

Leo's blog post on Godel's Incompleteness Theorem is what I have been trying to state but did not have the words. 

I don't think anybody is gonna read or respond to this post and that is okay. I am going to state my case anyways to help myself articulate what I have become conscious of.

My whole claim is that Awakening/Enlightenment is an illusion, self-deception, and does not exist.

This is because when you have an insight or awakening, you are assuming that your insight or awakening is true and not full of self-deception. And of course, this goes on to infinity.

Another main reason is because no matter what you become conscious of, there will always be something greater that you could become conscious of, and it goes on forever. 

This means that any insights you have will always be partial and will never grasp the whole of reality.

Your awakening/enlightenment is like an infinite regress. No matter what you become conscious of, you will never reach omniscience - complete understanding of reality. There is no way because no matter what you become conscious of, there will always be greater aspects of reality that you are unconscious of and things that are assumed to be true but never proven.

You cannot prove and demonstrate to me nor yourself that you have had an awakening. How could you possibly know whether any insight you have could be classified as an ''awakening'' or as a ''normal insight'' or as ''self-deception or false insight?''

I became conscious of this after Leo deleted his Solipsism video and then posted his Infinite Gods video. The deeper you go and the higher your consciousness goes, the more you start to untangle and realize that your previous insights were full of self-deception. The self-deception is infinite, and you are still in denial of that. The self-deception has to be infinite for you to exist at all. If God could understand and awaken to itself, then it could not exist at all because existence is always prior to knowledge in the same way that truth is prior to proof.

Contemplate this. Awakening cannot exist because if you claim that it takes 200 5me0 trips to awaken, then I could argue and always raise the bar that at 2000 trips, you will realize that 200 trips wasn't awakening, and then at 20,000 trips, you would realize that 2000 trips wasn't awakening, and so on.

Whatever your method is for discerning truth from falsehood, that is a system, and Godel's Theorem still applies to that! I wish more people would be conscious of what I am conscious of right now. This is my best attempt at communicating this insight I have had into the nature of insight and awakening.

It is so easy to confuse a profound insight with awakening. They aren't the same. Awakening is just another self-deception. "Just when you think you have solved the maze, that is when you have put yourself deeper in the maze." - Leo Gura (Life is A Maze).

I want you to take away from this post that Awakening/Enlightenment applies to Godel's Theorem, which means that you will never reach the end of understanding/insight/awakening. This does not mean you should give up spirituality and awakening. It just means that you realize that full awakening won't happen just like counting to infinity won't happen. (News Flash, Awakening = Infinity!) This means that you strive to do your best as a human being. Reach the highest level you can whether that is level 100, 1000, or 100000000. It won't matter in the end because 100 is the same distance to infinity as is 1000000000. But you will be a much wiser human being, and at the end of the day, it all comes down to your goals in life in what you believe is worth striving for.

1. By your definition all perspectival knowledge is self-deception as a result...your entire post is also self-deception.

2. Since your post is self-deception...you came to this conclusion through self-deception, to report that you discovered self-deception.

3. By the merits of your post that would mean my reply to your post is self-deception, and this would be an infinite regress.

4. By the points mentioned above....then what was the point of your post? To point out a self-deception within a self-deception?

5. Your post also has an implied denial of Absolute Truth. Not sure you are denying Absolute Truth.

6. Also since you believe you have discovered what self-deception is, even though by your definition you are actually caught in self-deception and according to your standards everyone on the forum is...what would not be self-deception? And how would you know?

Edited September 27, 2023 by Razard86

[r0ckyreed]

13 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

1. By your definition all perspectival knowledge is self-deception as a result...your entire post is also self-deception.

2. Since your post is self-deception...you came to this conclusion through self-deception, to report that you discovered self-deception.

3. By the merits of your post that would mean my reply to your post is self-deception, and this would be an infinite regress.

4. By the points mentioned above....then what was the point of your post? To point out a self-deception within a self-deception?

5. Your post also has an implied denial of Absolute Truth. Not sure you are denying Absolute Truth.

6. Also since you believe you have discovered what self-deception is, even though by your definition you are actually caught in self-deception and according to your standards everyone on the forum is...what would not be self-deception? And how would you know?

What do you think is meant by “life is a dream?”

[Razard86]

1 minute ago, r0ckyreed said:

What do you think is meant by “life is a dream?”

Why you asking me? Lol I am already awakened. You are the one denying awakening lol.

Why isn't a dream real? What is real? 

[r0ckyreed]

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Except Awakening does exist.

Stop assuming that it's final.

But how do you distinguish awakening from regular insight? What is the difference? How do you know whether you actually awakened or had a false insight? 

I entertain the idea that there could always be a higher level of consciousness that could make me doubt any profound insight I have had.

The reason why I say that is because I remember you claiming that complete understanding of reality or omniscience is possible. If that is so, then wouldn’t awakening have to be final; otherwise, your understanding wasn’t complete and you aren’t omniscient. But by Godel’s logic, you cannot ever reach the end. It’s a self- deception to think there is a final awakening.

[Razard86]

6 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

But how do you distinguish awakening from regular insight? What is the difference? How do you know whether you actually awakened or had a false insight? 

I entertain the idea that there could always be a higher level of consciousness that could make me doubt any profound insight I have had.

The reason why I say that is because I remember you claiming that complete understanding of reality or omniscience is possible. If that is so, then wouldn’t awakening have to be final; otherwise, your understanding wasn’t complete and you aren’t omniscient. But by Godel’s logic, you cannot ever reach the end. It’s a self- deception to think there is a final awakening.

Rockyreed....why don't you realize....that just because you discover more...doesn't negate something prior, that is dualistic thinking.

Negation...doesn't exist....negation is the illusion. How do you negate something...that cannot be divided? Through self-deception. So what you are currently caught in...is self-deception.

Reality is a thing that anytime you take a stance, a perspective on anything....then you are lost in self-deception. Reality is EVERYTHING. So guess what? It can be negation....but how does it pull it off? By creating the illusion of duality because negation can only exist in duality. 

Get it? I hope you do...

I'm going to remind you what nothing is.....what exists before your first memory? A blank.

That blank....is the building block of everything. How do you negate...a blank?

Edited September 27, 2023 by Razard86

[r0ckyreed]

2 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

Why you asking me? Lol I am already awakened. You are the one denying awakening lol.

Why isn't a dream real? What is real? 

I am asking you because of your questions. If dreaming is a self-deception, then that would mean that any knowledge in the dream is part of the dream. Even a lucid dream is still part of the dream/deception.

All knowledge and things post is part of “the self-deception.” Even you thinking you are awake is a self-deception. You are still dreaming. 

I am open to the possibility of awakening, but it just seems like it doesn’t exist. 

According to Leo, nobody on this forum is awake because according to him, he has reach levels of consciousness that nobody else has. Even though, it is possible that other people have had awakenings, when compared to who has reached the highest levels, everyone else’s awakening is mild.

Think about this. Let’s say your awakening is at lvl 100 and an alien you meet is at lvl 5000. I think this is why Leo says nobody is awake because he claims he is at that alien level of awareness and nobody else has. The alien makes you look like you haven’t awakened to shit. I hope you can see what I mean here.

[r0ckyreed]

7 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

Rockyreed....why don't you realize....that just because you discover more...doesn't negate something prior, that is dualistic thinking.

Negation...doesn't exist....negation is the illusion. How do you negate something...that cannot be divided? Through self-deception. So what you are currently caught in...is self-deception.

Reality is a thing that anytime you take a stance, a perspective on anything....then you are lost in self-deception. Reality is EVERYTHING. So guess what? It can be negation....but how does it pull it off? By creating the illusion of duality because negation can only exist in duality. 

Get it? I hope you do...

I'm going to remind you what nothing is.....what exists before your first memory? A blank.

That blank....is the building block of everything. How do you negate...a blank?

I will contemplate this.

[Leo Gura]

13 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

But how do you distinguish awakening from regular insight? What is the difference? How do you know whether you actually awakened or had a false insight?

The only difference is that Awakening is a totally new, different state of consciousness from what you're used to.

Your mistake is that you're not changing your state of consciousness. You're stuck in a low state of consciousness trying to understand higher states of consciousness theoretically, which is impossible.

[r0ckyreed]

You can have insights that negate other insights you’ve had. Awakening isn’t separate from this. I am making the assumption that there is no such thing as a complete awakening even though I cannot prove that. From this assumption, you can realize that since any awakening insight you have is incomplete, a higher insight will recontextualize other awakenings you’ve had. Some insights may lead you to realize that you have had false insights.

I think it is possible to be 100% convinced that you have awakened when you really haven’t.

[Osaid]

You're basically right and the discrepancy you're noticing has validity. Enlightenment is not the same thing as awakening though. But I think it might be hard for you to reconcile that because you perceive "realizing absolute truth" as something that can happen infinitely and so you lump enlightenment into the same category, but this is actually a misconception spawned from the paradigm of chasing awakenings forever.

The thing is, truth is realized once because reality is one thing. That's what enlightenment is, that's what absolute truth is, and that's what all the enlightened people have been pointing to for ages. Awakenings, deeper understandings, and psychedelic trips are not enlightenment. They are relative. Enlightenment is absolute. There is nothing beyond the absolute. The idea of "deeper understanding of Truth/God" is the classic fallacy of believing that something exists beyond the absolute, it is just worded differently because of cognitive dissonance.

Deeper understandings occur, but they are all relative (because "deeper" implies relativity), and then that is what you would call awakening. Truth is one thing, it doesn't split itself up into multiple things, and then you would call that enlightement. Awakenings can lead up to enlightenment, but they are not enlightenment.

In any case, I think you are noticing a very deep relativity/falsehood poking its head out when it comes to all these awakenings, and I would say that you are on the right track when it comes to this.

I particularly like the hypothetical that @Bandman pointed to in a recent thread:

Quote

Naturally you are familiar with Georg Cantor, who wrote about absolute infinity as the infinity that could never be reached.

If consciousness can be increased without limit , to go along with our analogy of levels of consciousness, woudn't that mean that level absolute infinity could never be reached? and wouldn't this paradoxically prove a transcendant Godhead that is outside of reality and could never be reached through any state of consciousness because any state of consciousness can always go deeper and never reaches the end? Doesn't this mean you're not God?

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Osaid

[r0ckyreed]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The only difference is that Awakening is a totally new, different state of consciousness from what you're used to.

Your mistake is that you're not changing your state of consciousness. You're stuck in a low state of consciousness trying to understand higher states of consciousness theoretically, which is impossible.

You are right about that. My state of consciousness is the same. I tried meditation, and it helps me get into a different state. But you make a good point that my contemplation practice will only be as effective as the state I am in. I don’t have access to psychedelics. So, I am trying to see if I can meditate or increase my consciousness through contemplation. My consciousness is still at the human survival level.
 

But I still think that even if I did things to raise my consciousness, the problem that I have presented will still remain for me to tackle.

Edited September 27, 2023 by r0ckyreed

[cetus]

1 hour ago, r0ckyreed said:

Another main reason is because no matter what you become conscious of, there will always be something greater that you could become conscious of, and it goes on forever. 

Consciousness is always moving toward greater entropy. A singularity expressing itself as infinite manifestations. 

[Razard86]

39 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

You are right about that. My state of consciousness is the same. I tried meditation, and it helps me get into a different state. But you make a good point that my contemplation practice will only be as effective as the state I am in. I don’t have access to psychedelics. So, I am trying to see if I can meditate or increase my consciousness through contemplation. My consciousness is still at the human survival level.
 

But I still think that even if I did things to raise my consciousness, the problem that I have presented will still remain for me to tackle.

If you can't get a traditional psychedelic, an edible could be an option.

[VeganAwake]

3 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

and will never grasp the whole of reality.

But enlightenment doesn't have anything to do with "grasping the whole of reality"

Rather its clearly seeing that this ME character trying to grasp infinity, isn't actually there. 

This can feel like death for some and simultaneously like a relaxed energetic release away from upholding this illusion of self. A deflation of sorts.

All its deeply seeded societal conditioning is seen through, & It eventually gets starved of energy.

It seems hidden until it's obvious!

❤️ 

[vibv]

2 hours ago, Osaid said:

The thing is, truth is realized once because reality is one thing. That's what enlightenment is, that's what absolute truth is, and that's what all the enlightened people have been pointing to for ages. Awakenings, deeper understandings, and psychedelic trips are not enlightenment. They are relative. Enlightenment is absolute. There is nothing beyond the absolute. The idea of "deeper understanding of Truth/God" is the classic fallacy of believing that something exists beyond the absolute, it is just worded differently because of cognitive dissonance.

Deeper understandings occur, but they are all relative (because "deeper" implies relativity), and then that is what you would call awakening. Truth is one thing, it doesn't split itself up into multiple things, and then you would call that enlightement. Awakenings can lead up to enlightenment, but they are not enlightenment.

Enlightenment is either relative or has no beginning nor end.

I mean how can it be that not everyone is "enlightened" (why is the sky dark when there are so many stars...) If it starts somewhere it has to end somewhere, too.

That could only make sense if we assume that GOD forgot it's true nature and then remembers it again. But that are awakenings that can deepen. So what the heck is enlightenment!!?!?!

If it's really absolute how you all claim it can be just the recognition that it is ALREADY the case. OR the insight that there CAN'T BE an enlightenment in the sense that it has a beginning somewhere.

It's the dropping away of this idea that enlightenment would be something obtainable.

Everything else would be an experience. And no experience can ever be something absolute.

[Fluran]

enlightenment, god, ego do not exist, but hmm.. they kind of exist, that's a thing, lol, even when you realize there is no ego or no god, no enlightenment, you may know also something deeper still existing.

[Razard86]

3 hours ago, Fluran said:

enlightenment, god, ego do not exist, but hmm.. they kind of exist, that's a thing, lol, even when you realize there is no ego or no god, no enlightenment, you may know also something deeper still existing.

God exists....you just haven't experienced God yet.

[Guest Bazooka Jesus]

8 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

Your awakening/enlightenment is like an infinite regress. No matter what you become conscious of, you will never reach omniscience - complete understanding of reality.

These are two different things that you are conflating here. You don't need to know the entire ocean in order to realize that water is wet.