Enlightenment is a paradigm

[UnbornTao]

11 hours ago, vibv said:

Things I say are exclusively based on insights I have become directly conscious of. Though the details may not always be completely accurate, I’m still working it all out.

it’s my current understanding of reality, which is always advancing. I also test this stuff and put it to the test through some psychedelic musical ritual I’m working on. I take this understanding and use it to connect to the divine. It’s science, really.

After going beyond enlightenment consciousness bubbles over with creativity. But it’s not mere funny ideas in the mind, it actually a tool for creation.

All I say is verifiable by direct experience. If I see that it fails to deliver it’s going to change. This is the best version based on all past experiences that I can put together. But I’m just starting to get vocal about it.. so have some patience. If you really notice something that goes against your OWN direct experience, please tell me. Maybe it can help me to further develop this model in important ways.

Either I‘m completely deluded or I got insights that no human before me ever had. We will see  if it works you gonna hear from it.

You're full of it. It's possible you've had insights but enlightenment is a different matter and there's nothing to work out.

Have several enlightenments first. Until then, it is best not to presume to know what that is.

[vibv]

@UnbornTao Do you consider yourself enlightened?

This forum is the perfect training ground for me to deal with backlash. I just speak my truth. But it's funny to see who gets offended by that.

[UnbornTao]

12 minutes ago, vibv said:

@UnbornTao Do you consider yourself enlightened?

No.

Not offended. It's just clear you are conflating relative things and are trying to concoct or validate a certain cosmology. That has nothing to do with enlightenment work. Your mind is trying to rationalize the matter which is OK but it isn't it.

[vibv]

@UnbornTao I don't talk about enlightenment at all when I present my current understanding of reality. I'm not interested in enlightenment anymore, because that theme is done for me. There's nothing more to do there.

All I say is there's something beyond enlightenment. Enlightenment, too, has to be transcended at some point.

[UnbornTao]

@vibv Have several enlightenments first. Can't transcend what you are not conscious of. In any case, it is silly to think that it can be transcended. You are talking about something relative, perhaps an insight, and may have concluded this is all there is to the story. I'm suggesting you might actually not know what enlightenment is. In that case, remaining open and contemplating, as if you were waiting, is better than making conclusions.

In your post there's a lot of "stuff", not you.

Edited September 28, 2023 by UnbornTao

[CoolDreamThanks]

1 hour ago, vibv said:

@UnbornTao I don't talk about enlightenment at all when I present my current understanding of reality. I'm not interested in enlightenment anymore, because that theme is done for me. There's nothing more to do there.

All I say is there's something beyond enlightenment. Enlightenment, too, has to be transcended at some point.

What a load of bullsh*t

[vibv]

@UnbornTao Okay, if you say so. Still you couldn't point out one single inconsistency in what I say. Or describe how your own direct experience contradicts what I say.

This conversation is wasted energy at this point.

[VeganAwake]

Insert guy eating popcorn meme here:

 

❤️ 

[vibv]

I just contemplated the whole issue a little bit and had some insights.

These are some established insights about the absolute and the relative:

1. The Absolute is ever-unchanging, the relative changes all the time
2. The Absolute is total and perfect, the relative contains suffering and consists of impermanent experiences
3. The Absolute is your true nature, the relative is illusion, Maya, just a dream

Now, did it ever occur to you, that the relative CAN'T be separate from the absolute? That the relative must BE the absolute? There can't be anything else except the absolute, so what IS IT?

But how can those contradictory qualities be true at the same time:

1. How can IT be always in motion but at the same time untouched and in perfect stillness?
2. How can IT be absolutely perfect and at the same time contain suffering and impermanence?
3. How can IT be your true nature and at the same be an illusion?

Notice: You can't just say: "Well, all former qualities are qualities of the absolute and all latter qualities are just relative. Our job is to end the entrapment inside the relative through enlightenment, by remembering our true nature"

See what you did there? You split the absolute again in two parts, divided by an event you call "enlightenment". But you can't do that because the Absolute is total and indivisible.

I'll leave it at that for the moment, the next question you can ponder a bit for yourself would be: So how can those contradictions be true at the same time?

To conclude, I think the invention of enlightenment in the sense the word is used nowadays is just a surrogate for Death. Death was taken away from you, because now you know that you can't die. But enlightenment gives you this sense of comfort, that it will one time be just over and the suffering will finally end.

THIS IS FALSE! You have to work that out for yourself instead of hoping that enlightenment will come along and solves all your problems for you.

And if you think you already achieved enlightenment, how can you say that at some point your whole life changed through that event without that being SOMETHING RELATIVE!? The Absolute can't change and can't be divided, you forgot that?

There is only possible solution for this dilemma:

THE RELATIVE IS THE ABSOLUTE. There is no other way.

[Jehovah increases]

2 hours ago, CoolDreamThanks said:

What a load of bullsh*t

You are full of it.

[SeaMonster]

10 minutes ago, vibv said:

Now, did it ever occur to you, that the relative CAN'T be separate from the absolute? That the relative must BE the absolute? There can't be anything else except the absolute, so what IS IT?

That's a good point and I absolutely agree with it.

While you're fundamentally correct, though, it seems to me that where you are mistaken is labeling a partial realization (where there is reification of a subject in some form, whether it's the Absolute or Brahman or another term like Big Mind) as "enlightenment."

But "enlightenment" is where the reification ends.  There is no more subject.

 

 

 

[vibv]

19 minutes ago, SeaMonster said:

While you're fundamentally correct, though, it seems to me that where you are mistaken is labeling a partial realization (where there is reification of a subject in some form, whether it's the Absolute or Brahman or another term like Big Mind) as "enlightenment."

But "enlightenment" is where the reification ends.  There is no more subject.

Do you experience that?

I am totally me, but I'm also grounded in the Absolute. I'm aware of the absoluteness of the Absolute, but I don't feel less myself, I feel MORE connected to this experience and body. It's kind of like lucid dreaming and it's amazing.

I don't know if someday I wake up and think "oh, there's nobody there" but that sounds so silly. I can see the possibility but why would I want that? Why should I have an interest in disappearing? It makes no sense to me. Let's say that my current form is like a mask for the Absolute. Yeah, I WANT to play, and feel, and cry and laugh AS that character. I want to experience all the pain, pleasure, despair and ecstasy that comes with that. That's the whole point, isn't it? I CHOOSE so.

And besides, that still would be a relative experience: You're there, then you're not, but experience continues anyway, so what's really the difference?

The way I see it what's WAY more important is LOVE. A thorough and total YES to Life, ALL of it.

In wanting to disappear there's still this death wish going on. It's about Becoming LOVE, but that won't happen in this human realm. Here we can only connect as much as possible with that, but that's also absolutely perfect already.

But that doesn't mean there's nothing to change, in the contrary! Life is Eternal Change. We have to overcome our fear of death, that is also a fear of Life. It's about Transformation, a kind of alchemy that turns Darkness into Ecstasy.

Edited September 27, 2023 by vibv

[Breakingthewall]

50 minutes ago, vibv said:

The Absolute is ever-unchanging, the relative changes all the time

Yes but what is absolute is the substance of the reality, so at the end, the relative is the absolute. The change is apparent because the substance is always the same. Infinity is what reality is. It has infinite possibilities of manifesting itself in different reality structures, but really it is always the same, it cannot be anything else, since it is always total infinity. Enlightenment is realizing fully and really what you are, which is the absolute infinite, it is not something thinkable, it is something to which you have to open yourself and it has to manifest. You, the avatar that wants to open itself, the only thing you can do is create the most favorable conditions possible for this to happen. lighten, give yourself, open. empty the cup to be filled, as it's said. This is absolute, because what you are is.

[SeaMonster]

22 minutes ago, vibv said:

Do you experience that?

Yes.

22 minutes ago, vibv said:

I am totally me, but I'm also grounded in the Absolute. I'm aware of the absoluteness of the Absolute, but I don't feel less myself, I feel MORE connected to this experience and body. It's kind of like lucid dreaming and it's amazing.

If there is some kind of reified subject, then the awakening is (to quote Leo, haha) incomplete.

Enlightenment has no subject, no essential reality.  Just drop it - you don't need it.

Edited September 27, 2023 by SeaMonster

[vibv]

6 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Yes but what is absolute is the substance of the reality, so at the end, the relative is the absolute. The change is apparent because the substance is always the same. Infinity is what reality is. It has infinite possibilities of manifesting itself in different reality structures, but really it is always the same, it cannot be anything else, since it is always total infinity. Enlightenment is realizing fully and really what you are, which is the absolute infinite, it is not something thinkable, it is something to which you have to open yourself and it has to manifest. You, the avatar that wants to open itself, the only thing you can do is create the most favorable conditions possible for this to happen. lighten, give yourself, open. empty the cup to be filled, as it's said. This is absolute, because what you are is.

Did you experience that?

What you describe is like the TV-screen metaphor Rupert Spira often used. But the error with that in my view is that it discards the program. The plot-twist is that it's NOT about the TV, that is completely uninteresting, it's about the program. And.. the program IS the TV-Screen. That metaphor breaks down there.

You all discard the relative, that's the problem with that thinking – but the RELATIVE IS THE ABSOLUTE. Literally. There are no different experiences, there is JUST THIS ONE. Everything else is your imagination.

[vibv]

6 minutes ago, SeaMonster said:

Yes.

If there is some kind of reified subject, then the awakening is (to quote Leo, haha) incomplete.

Enlightenment has no subject, no essential reality.  Just drop it - you don't need it.

There's absolutely nothing to drop except what I CHOOSE to be. I AM OMNIPOTENT AND I CHOOSE THAT

LOL THIS is it! There's NOTHING to achieve. You STILL are in the relative don't you see that!?

FULL AWAKENING IS IMPOSSIBLE AS A HUMAN

[Breakingthewall]

16 minutes ago, vibv said:

Did you experience that?

What you describe is like the TV-screen

Yes, I have had moments of total dissolution of the form in which total infinity is completely manifested, and almost full time it is quite transparent. the glass is full, as they say. The thing about the rupert spira screen doesn't seem like a good metaphor to me. Let's say you are the T1000 from Terminator 2. Your substance is the liquid metal that, only infinite, takes on infinite shapes, colors and textures, but it is always the infinite liquid metal. You can say: ah, well, then I know what reality is, that's the liquid metal. It doesn't work like that. in the liquid metal there are all possible forms, like at the end when it burns and they all appear, only they are infinite. everything is there. It's unimaginable. You can only open yourself to it and be it.you must get rid of the form, put it in the background, break the limits, and realize what the real quality of the infinite is, what it is, what you are. If you think about it, you lose it, because thinking is giving shape. The form takes center stage and the essence fades. put the form in the background until it is nothing, then the essence manifests. empty the glass so that it fills up, typical

Edited September 27, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[vibv]

49 minutes ago, SeaMonster said:

That's a good point and I absolutely agree with it.

While you're fundamentally correct, though, it seems to me that where you are mistaken is labeling a partial realization (where there is reification of a subject in some form, whether it's the Absolute or Brahman or another term like Big Mind) as "enlightenment."

But "enlightenment" is where the reification ends.  There is no more subject.

NO. I discard the WHOLE THING. There IS not an enlightenment in that sense, it DOESN'T EXIST

The only enlightenment that exists is the realization that there CAN NOT BE an enlightenment.

What it's about is AWAKENING, that's something completely different and you definitely can't go back.

What about your experience? Well, it's just that, an experience. Subject or not. It's still relative – or Absolute because the relative is the Absolute but that DIDN'T CHANGE

[Yimpa]

@vibv Relax buddy. You are certainly not Awake if you are still seeing human as something less than God. God is imagining every single human being ever imaginable.

You are constantly telling yourself that you are less than yourself without even realizing it. Keep raising your consciousness when you are ready to drop the defenses.

[Yimpa]

11 minutes ago, vibv said:

FULL AWAKENING IS IMPOSSIBLE AS A HUMAN

WHEN HUMAN BECOMES GOD, THEN YOU WILL KNOW