Enlightenment is a paradigm

[vibv]

This video is 6 years old, but more relevant than ever:

Everything about paradigms is completely applicable to human spirituality and enlightenment. Because it OF COURSE is another paradigm.

"Enlightened" people are paradigm-locked. Every critique of that can be completely discarded by calling others unenlightened or "obviously not there yet". That alone should make you suspicious. 

But of course every serious paradigm is unable to identify itself as such from the inside, it seems completely self-evident and the only true way to see things.

What Leo didn't realize in this video yet is that non-duality and enlightenment are itself paradigms - more advanced ones, but still. He obviously does now. When are you gonna see it, too? Are you even interested in opening up to that possibility or do you just want to stay where it's cozy, convincing yourself that this has to be finally the end of your development?

Edited September 26, 2023 by vibv

[Water by the River]

And that is why you roll out your own paradigm/set of beliefs (above).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performative_contradiction

Ever heard of non-conceptual Awakening? Non-nonceptual nondual awakened states?

What you describe in your post is just a set of beliefs. Awakening and Enlightenment promises something beyond all these conceptual games.

When one truly awakens one can throw away all ladders/conceptual frameworks. Until then one better has good and encompassing /integral conceptual worldviews. And paradigms/worldviews/ladders that deny the possibility of the destination of the ladder are... pretty comfy. Nothing to transcend  just stay where one is....

Edited September 26, 2023 by Water by the River

[vibv]

5 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

Nothing to transcend  just stay where one is....

That's not at all what I'm saying. Enlightenment is just another thing to transcend.

[Water by the River]

3 minutes ago, vibv said:

 Enlightenment is just another thing to transcend.

That happens at the moment of Enlightenment. Doing it before is like throwing the ladder away before reaching....

 

[vibv]

4 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

That happens at the moment of Enlightenment.

 

It doesn't. At the moment of "enlightenment" you begin (or rather continue) to build a framework around it and it becomes falsehood.

I don't exactly question what it points to, it has some kernel of truth. But it's not what's being made out of it, it's not what you think and it's certainly not the end.

[vibv]

@Water by the River You even deny that it's a framework of thinking and conceptualization. The non-dual awareness in itself is not wrong, but as soon as you're talking about it it's already an idea.

Attached to that is the idea that now you've reached some kind of final destination. OR you think that everything else is kind of irrelevant. Both are assumptions and both are false.

[Water by the River]

17 minutes ago, vibv said:

 At the moment of "enlightenment" you begin (or rather continue) to build a framework around it and it becomes falsehood..

non-CONCEPTUAL direct Awakening. At the moment of Enlightenment there is no you nor a framework...

 

 

[Breakingthewall]

20 minutes ago, vibv said:

At the moment of "enlightenment" you begin (or rather continue) to build a framework around it and it becomes falsehood.

If you do that, then it is falsehood, but the point is not to do it, but to have a real openness now completely free of conceptualization. There comes a time when even if there is no opening there is also no conceptualization, since you have seen so many times that reality is not conceptual that you stop that activity completely.

[Water by the River]

3 minutes ago, vibv said:

@Water by the River You even deny that it's a framework of thinking and conceptualization. The non-dual awareness in itself is not wrong, but as soon as you're talking about it it's already an idea.

No. One can very well talk from an enlightened state. 

5 minutes ago, vibv said:

@Water by the River 

Attached to that is the idea that now you've reached some kind of final destination. OR you think that everything else is kind of irrelevant. Both are assumptions and both are false.

That would be your interpretation of that.  I never wrote it in that undifferentiated way. Once realizing the Absolute, one can start living and stabilizing in that/from that. The relative is infinity. Nothing final there.

 

[vibv]

1 minute ago, Water by the River said:

Once realizing the Absolute, one can start living and stabilizing in that/from that. The relative is infinity. Nothing final there.

That makes it sound like it's optional, it's just some details. Just settling into it, but you got the main point figured out.

That's exactly what in science happens again and again. The sentiment that it's just a few details that need more figuring out, but we got the gist of it. Only for something to come along and shatter the whole core of understanding up to this point.

You'll maybe say "but enlightenment is not science!!", but the same mechanism applies. To think that there's no other possibility and it's just the reality should already make you suspicious, that's a tell-tale sign of being locked in a paradigm.

Maybe you even dropped all your ideas and concepts in that moment. But now you've just adopted new ones.

[StarStruck]

 

[vibv]

@StarStruck The Absolute is what IS. Everything else are thoughts, ideas, experiences that come and go. That means your enlightenment CAN'T be an experience.

That's totally valid. But everything else are assumptions and concepts about that.

For example that experience is less important than non-experience. What if experience is the important part and the non-experience is not really that interesting? How could you know that that can't be true? It has to be an assumption, you can't know that.

[vibv]

You're like a tree that has grown roots into the ground, and now decided that that's it. It's stable, feels safe, and you get nourished.

This is not false, it is even necessary. But what about reaching for the sky? Even if you know you'll never reach it — but it's so beautiful to grow.

The true art of spirituality is to have deep roots in the ground and then develop the most beautiful crown to join the birds up there. Being rooted is only one half of your nature. But the other half is what brings you in contact with the mysteries of the cosmos.

If you've reached it it can't be heaven.

Edited September 26, 2023 by vibv

[Breakingthewall]

I would say that the confusion with this issue is qualitative. People say: awakening is realizing that you are God and you are creating reality. Well, that may be so. It could also be that you are a lawyer and have a trial tomorrow, these are things that happen. But realizing what you are is not realizing what you do, who you are, it is opening yourself to what you really are, it is something more from the heart than from the mind. It is like you have forgotten what you are because thousands of characteristics cloud it, for example the fact of being God and creating reality, but if you remove all that structure, what you really are remains. what anything is, since the unlimited infinite has a quality that is indefinable, it can only be and in the fact of being it is all possible understanding, which is the understanding that you are unlimited, everything else is derived understandings of this essential understanding

Edited September 26, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[gettoefl]

2 hours ago, vibv said:

That makes it sound like it's optional, it's just some details. Just settling into it, but you got the main point figured out.

That's exactly what in science happens again and again. The sentiment that it's just a few details that need more figuring out, but we got the gist of it. Only for something to come along and shatter the whole core of understanding up to this point.

You'll maybe say "but enlightenment is not science!!", but the same mechanism applies. To think that there's no other possibility and it's just the reality should already make you suspicious, that's a tell-tale sign of being locked in a paradigm.

Maybe you even dropped all your ideas and concepts in that moment. But now you've just adopted new ones.

seems you say so as one who has not seen ... there is no few more details, the fun goes on to ever greater heights, but only after you have seen and known and tasted and that sight is indisputable and makes for the beginning of a whole new life

[vibv]

14 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

there is no few more details, the fun goes on to ever greater heights

True. But it doesn't stop you from being paradigm-locked.

Edited September 26, 2023 by vibv

[gettoefl]

43 minutes ago, vibv said:

True. But it doesn't stop you from being paradigm-locked.

thanks for all your posts here, really enjoy your insights

[vibv]

@gettoefl You're welcome 

[Yimpa]

5 hours ago, vibv said:

What Leo didn't realize in this video yet is that non-duality and enlightenment are itself paradigms - more advanced ones, but still. He obviously does now.

That’s your paradigm. 

I see enlightenment as Love.

5 hours ago, vibv said:

When are you gonna see it, too? 

I Love You 

[Yimpa]

In case I’m not making myself clear… EVERYTHING that you hate is LOVE

Non-duality is Love
Enlightenment is Love
Science is Love
War is Love
Religion is Love
Human is Love
Evil thoughts is Love
Separation is Love
Attachment is Love
Abandonment is Love
Death is Love
 

And YOU are GOD