There is something really wrong with findom and femdom.

[Something Funny]

@flowboy seriously, If a patient comes to a therapist and shares that he has a foot "fetish" and that he has a lot of guilt and shame around it. And a therapist decides to fix the part of his client that likes feet instead of working with the shame and guilt, and promoting self-love and self-acceptance. Then I think that they are a shit therapist.

This is my genuine opinion. Not as a medical professional, but as a client who is sick and tired of under-qualified, dumb therapists, coaches, and other self-help gurus.

[Something Funny]

@Javfly33 yeah, btw. You won't be able to deal with this Findom thing by "taking responsibility" or by using your willpower. What you need to work on is self-love.

What's so neat about this is that it is a fundamental skill and you can just slowly chip away at it. As opposed to trying to find some mysterious moment in your past that will be crystal clear linked to your fetish, like your mom stealing your lunch money while you were playing under a dinner table

*not that analyzing your past is totally useless.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Something Funny

[Javfly33]

16 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

@Javfly33 

 like your mom stealing your lunch money while you were playing under a dinner table

 

???

Nah, but seriously, I think findom will not be an issue in my life when I have enough women on my life and I'm stable in the assertive masculine energy and not in the nice guy-expect validation from woman mode.

I don't think there's other way. I spent a lot of time trying to heal me and all of that but it hasn't worked. It just seems I've been avoiding the harsh reality that this dating game is a jungle and one has to defend itself and become strong within.

I've tried to deny this harsh reality but is time for me to accept the rules of the game.

[Javfly33]

9 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

That behavior itself is also coming from trauma. Traumatized people attract traumatized people into their lives. It's a chicken and egg problem. Same goes for toxic men who abuse women. Men are successful with toxic dating strategies, because there is a demand for it. Some very traumatized and insecure women are attracted to that kind of abusive behavior. Men like Andrew Tate then come walking around the corner and say: "Hey look at how successful I am with women guys, I get all of the women and I don't even have to treat them like people!", which is very convenient for insecure men who've been traumatized by women, because that keeps them from actually reflecting upon their issues.

That doesn't mean that you can't speak up against that kind of behavior, but it's important to recognize that such behavior doesn't just fall out of the sky. A healthy women won't wake up one day and go: "Yep, I'm going to be an absolute piece of shit towards men from now on". A lot of these women have probably either been abused or abandoned in some way shape or form.

Well said ??

 

 

[flowboy]

1 hour ago, Something Funny said:

@flowboy seriously, If a patient comes to a therapist and shares that he has a foot "fetish" and that he has a lot of guilt and shame around it. And a therapist decides to fix the part of his client that likes feet instead of working with the shame and guilt, and promoting self-love and self-acceptance. Then I think that they are a shit therapist.

This is my genuine opinion. Not as a medical professional, but as a client who is sick and tired of under-qualified, dumb therapists, coaches, and other self-help gurus.

The fact that you think that a therapist can "fix" part of a person, an arbitrary part that he judges as something wrong to fix, then either you have met only shit therapists or your understanding of the subject matter is severely lacking.

Of course the foot fetish was a detail in the story. The person had an inability to form healthy attachments to other humans, which is why they were in therapy, and the foot thing just came up as a result of regression sessions. No one is suggesting that liking feet is a reason to go to therapy. I have no judgments of your foot fetish, enjoy it!

You can not "fix" a part of the person. You start with their feelings, such as shame and guilt for example, and you unravel them, trace them back, again and again and that leads to the undoing of the entire neurosis of the person.

Yes, I am annoyed, but not at you, I just took it out on you a bit. It's frustrating to me that the more I learn about trauma and healing, the less I am able to communicate this wisdom, because to the uneducated it just seems wishy-washy or fringe or whatever, while to me, having experienced and applied and been transformed by this knowledge, see link in signature for example, it's perfectly clear, simple and certain how it all works. It just makes crystal clear sense. And yet, I seem to not be able to explain it to anyone who is not already familiar.

I believe this to be because of the defense mechanisms that everyone has in place. Basically, the mind defends unconsciously against information that would threaten its ability to keep repressing its massive store of pain. The mind's agenda is to not look where it most needs to look. And it's most effective diversion tactic is to mess with your perceptions, to make profound truths seem like ridiculous platitudes. And so the mind labels it as wishy-washy vague nonsense, just the same as my mind did before I knew anything.

It's not your fault, @Something Funny just like it is not the fault of some of our parents that they think psychedelics make you jump off buildings. It's frustrating for the insiders that people on the outside believe that, though.

Don't get me wrong. I am not a typical therapist, in fact I am not a therapist by any official standards (yet). And I argue with therapists. Several of my friends are therapists, and even they don't have a deep understanding of how trauma forms the psyche. Because they don't do the deep research, they don't read what I recommend them to read, and they don't have the fascination to understand how people become the way they are. How personalities are formed with all their quirks and flaws. It's not random. It's perfectly elegant and logical, but obfuscated.

But all they (typical psychology masters) care about is diagnosing, protocols and prescribing. Tell me what to do with this kind of symptom please. Mind-numbing. Robotic. The opposite of holistic. They don't understand and they don't ask questions. It's all random to them, just like the universe. Random particles. Random big bang. Random everything out of nothing. Random psychological symptoms.

And I'm over here, beyond the pale, screaming into a void

Perhaps I should write a book. Maybe that will help. Or sell a book list like Leo does. But would people bother to read Janov, Stone, Jenson, Bradshaw, Miller, Freud, Schwartz, just to understand what I am trying to say? I doubt it.

I need to get better at biting my tongue and saying too much, is what I need to do.

[Something Funny]

23 minutes ago, flowboy said:

The fact that you think that a therapist can "fix" part of a person, an arbitrary part that he judges as something wrong to fix, then either you have met only shit therapists or your understanding of the subject matter is severely lacking.

I am not saying that this is what a therapist does. I am saying that this is the intention I got from your original post.

25 minutes ago, flowboy said:

Of course the foot fetish was a detail in the story. The person had an inability to form healthy attachments to other humans, which is why they were in therapy, and the foot thing just came up as a result of regression sessions. No one is suggesting that liking feet is a reason to go to therapy. I have no judgments of your foot fetish, enjoy it!

You can not "fix" a part of the person. You start with their feelings, such as shame and guilt for example, and you unravel them, trace them back, again and again and that leads to the undoing of the entire neurosis of the person.

Notice how you didn't provide that context originally and are only now adding it. Maybe I wouldn't even started arguing with you if it was written like that from the beginning.

27 minutes ago, flowboy said:

Yes, I am annoyed, but not at you, I just took it out on you a bit. It's frustrating to me that the more I learn about trauma and healing, the less I am able to communicate this wisdom, because to the uneducated it just seems wishy-washy or fringe or whatever, while to me, having experienced and applied and been transformed by this knowledge, see link in signature for example, it's perfectly clear, simple and certain how it all works. It just makes crystal clear sense. And yet, I seem to not be able to explain it to anyone who is not already familiar.

I believe this to be because of the defense mechanisms that everyone has in place. Basically, the mind defends unconsciously against information that would threaten its ability to keep repressing its massive store of pain. The mind's agenda is to not look where it most needs to look. And it's most effective diversion tactic is to mess with your perceptions, to make profound truths seem like ridiculous platitudes. And so the mind labels it as wishy-washy vague nonsense, just the same as my mind did before I knew anything.

It's not your fault, @Something Funny just like it is not the fault of some of our parents that they think psychedelics make you jump off buildings. It's frustrating for the insiders that people on the outside believe that, though.

All of that is to say that maybe you frustration comes from the fact that the way you communicate with people sucks, and not because of "ignorant outsiders who don't believe you".

[Something Funny]

29 minutes ago, flowboy said:

Don't get me wrong. I am not a typical therapist, in fact I am not a therapist by any official standards (yet). And I argue with therapists. Several of my friends are therapists, and even they don't have a deep understanding of how trauma forms the psyche. Because they don't do the deep research, they don't read what I recommend them to read, and they don't have the fascination to understand how people become the way they are. How personalities are formed with all their quirks and flaws. It's not random. It's perfectly elegant and logical, but obfuscated.

But all they (typical psychology masters) care about is diagnosing, protocols and prescribing. Tell me what to do with this kind of symptom please. Mind-numbing. Robotic. The opposite of holistic. They don't understand and they don't ask questions. It's all random to them, just like the universe. Random particles. Random big bang. Random everything out of nothing. Random psychological symptoms.

Secondly, it is funny how in the text quoted below you dismiss me expressing my frustrations as a patient with people working in this field and write them off as me simply being ignorant, but then you do the same thing. Is that because you are an "insider" who has a right to say those things because you are sooo educated?

Just now, Something Funny said:

The fact that you think that a therapist can "fix" part of a person, an arbitrary part that he judges as something wrong to fix, then either you have met only shit therapists or your understanding of the subject matter is severely lacking.

And yeah, I've had some experience with shit therapists, coaches, and self-help gurus.

And you were actually one of them. I am not sure if you remember me but I was once in a pretty bad mental state, sharing my issues on this forum, and you reached out to me, pretending to care "oh so much" and wanting to help me. Only for it to turn out to be a pitch for your 1000+ dollar coaching package or something (I guess you must have been pretty desperate for clients at that time to hunt for them one by one on here). That kind of a behavior, finding someone in pain and then trying to make some money off of them, is a thing that really annoys me to be honest.

Actually, now that I think of it, it's no wonder that you were standing up for those pornhub girls. What you are doing is not that different.

[Something Funny]

But don't worry.

Yes, I am a bit pissed off now, but not at you. Just this whole state of affairs in general.

And it's not your fault, @flowboy. Just like it's not a fault of those porn girls. They are simply doing what they have to, to survive in our difficult world. But it's just frustrating for us, outsiders, that you only see us as some ignorant money bags.

Besides, I've been super lucky to finally find a teacher who puts her whole heart and soul into this work.

[flowboy]

8 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

I am not sure if you remember me but I was once in a pretty bad mental state, sharing my issues on this forum, and you reached out to me, pretending to care "oh so much" and wanting to help me. Only for it to turn out to be a pitch for your 1000+ dollar coaching package or something (I guess you must have been pretty desperate for clients at that time to hunt for them one by one on here). That kind of a behavior, finding someone in pain and then trying to make some money off of them, is a thing that really annoys me to be honest.

Yes, I wanted to help you, and I didn't want to do it for free. If you think people should help you with your problems for free, then I am not surprised you've only met shit therapists and shit coaches. You have an entitled attitude and think the best quality help is owed to you, the world should give it to you for free. That's not how it works.

I spent entire evenings with clients several days a week, for many months, to get the results they wanted. And they were happy to pay me much more than what I proposed to you. Because what I do works, and it's not for people who make excuses and think they shouldn't have to pay for any services.

Edited September 27, 2023 by flowboy

[flowboy]

11 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

Secondly, it is funny how in the text quoted below you dismiss me expressing my frustrations as a patient with people working in this field and write them off as me simply being ignorant, but then you do the same thing. Is that because you are an "insider" who has a right to say those things because you are sooo educated?

I will defend to the death your right to say the uneducated ignorant things you are saying. You certainly have that right.

[flowboy]

8 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

Besides, I've been super lucky to finally find a teacher who puts her whole heart and soul into this work.

And yet you still believe that all you need to do is "love yourself".

You get what you pay for.

[Something Funny]

@flowboy Oh, do not worry. I have no issue with paying for the services that I get. I've paid all my therapists for their sessions. I am paying my current teacher for sessions with her. And I have also bought a bunch of courses and self-help books.

What really makes me sick though, is the audacity to proactively seek out a person who is in pain, pretend to be a caring friend, just wanting to help, and then try to pitch them your product while they are in this vulnerable, emotional state.

Actually, I am not sure if your signature and what you are doing doesn't violate forum rules about no self-promotion.

Quote

What’s NOT Allowed:

Self-promotion

Coming here to start your teaching/coaching/guru business by leeching off this audience

This forum is not for you to run up to people and try to sell them your coaching sessions like a trader selling watermelons at marketplace.

7 minutes ago, flowboy said:

I will defend to the death your right to say the uneducated ignorant things you are saying. You certainly have that right.

5 minutes ago, flowboy said:

And yet you still believe that all you need to do is "love yourself".

You get what you pay for.

Oh wow, so now you have gone and started a full on attack on my education level and financial situation. I guess this really show the quality of person that you are. Well, I am sorry for being such a plebs compared to you, professor.

 

[Something Funny]

8 minutes ago, flowboy said:

And yet you still believe that all you need to do is "love yourself".

You get what you pay for.

Oh well, at least my teacher actually achieved something in her own life and has a direct experience of what she is talking about.

And so does Leo actually.

Maybe that's why they now don't have to invade other people's forums to hunt for customers.

You seem like a perfect example of someone who became successful by starting to teach other people how to become successful.

[Something Funny]

And yeah, Self-Love IS the highest teaching in the Universe. It's a shame that you don't get this.

 

[Something Funny]

@flowboy I was too harsh, sorry.

[flowboy]

2 hours ago, Something Funny said:

Actually, I am not sure if your signature and what you are doing doesn't violate forum rules about no self-promotion.

Alright, if you want to get into it let's get into it.

• I have experimented in the past with meeting potential coaching clients through messaging on the forum
• Leo told me not to
• Upon which I stopped
• I don't even offer coaching anymore

That is for Leo to police, not you. This is not your forum.

I don't think it is wrong at all, otherwise I wouldn't have done it of course.

Sometimes you see a person you like and can help, it would be a shame not to try.

Of course, the guy who owns the platform can tell me what to do or not to do, and I listen.

I've always been polite and I actually cared about people when I was doing that.

Which is why I take issue with what you accuse me of:

2 hours ago, Something Funny said:

What really makes me sick though, is the audacity to proactively seek out a person who is in pain, pretend to be a caring friend, just wanting to help, and then try to pitch them your product while they are in this vulnerable, emotional state.

Why do you assume I pretended?

Where is all that bitterness coming from?

I offered a chat. I made time for you. I gave you free tips and insights. And I cared.

Where's the pretense?

Then I offered to help you even more, for a fee.

You've made a weird twist in your mind at that moment, thinking: "Oh, he's got a service he charges for. Everything up to this point must have been fake".

Not fake, dude.

I offered you a free call and I gave it to you.

I wish I could help everyone for free.

I do tons of free sessions and spend sometimes 3 hours with someone.

When it's a free session, I don't charge.

I give you what I promised, and more.

Then when I offer more and it is for a fee, they don't get angry and bitter. That's just you.

Which is why I'm asking: where is all the bitterness coming from?

And by the way, the people who said yes during that time, which is almost 2 years ago now?

Still in contact with them every week.

They're still glad they said yes.

Saying yes that day made a big impact on their life.

Meanwhile, here you are trying to cling to the concept of "self-love", which is perhaps the highest teaching in the universe, but it's also a glorified cope when using it for shadow/trauma issues.

There, I said it. Self-love as a strategy for solving psychological problems is a cope.

There is a reason *actually* mentally healthy people, who aren't run by their repressed pain, don't need to talk about self-love and practice loving themselves everyday.

It's because love is abundant, it is baked in, it is your birthright, it is something that you never consciously need to give yourself... there is always enough self-love, so much so that you have no need for the concept.

IF you are not blocked by trauma energy.

You can't add self-love on top of trauma energy and call it healing.

That's a band-aid.

Have fun coping, paying for learning more coping, and making ad-hominem attacks at people with real answers.

Edited September 27, 2023 by flowboy

[Something Funny]

@flowboy oh wow. I wanted to stop this argument. And even made a first step. But since you want to continue, then lets go...

20 minutes ago, flowboy said:

That is for Leo to police, not you. This is not your forum.

Forum members can, in fact, contribute to the forum if they feel like it. It doesn't have to be THEIR forum, for them to do this. This is why the report button exists for example.

Also, I wasn't going to police anything. I wasn't going to bring this up with anyone. I just wanted to point it out. But, if you insist, I guess I will ask the moderators team their third party opinion on the issue.

24 minutes ago, flowboy said:

Where is all that bitterness coming from?

Hmm, I wonder where. I wasn't really bitter at you originally. Just kind of sad and disappointed.

***

You are calling me entitled for wanting free stuff. But I didn't come begging to you for life advise. You DMed me yourself! You pretended to emphasize with me, had me share some of my major insecurities and worries with you. All just to pitch me your coaching.

And I mean, when you offered me a call and I agreed to it, I knew, that you were probably going to do something like that at some point. I was even open to that idea. But then I was shocked by how direct and impersonal it was, I guess.

You basically listened to me describing what I struggled with for 5 minutes and than proceeded to offer me you coaching for a 1000 bucks. That's all it was. Oh, and you also shared a few of your youtube videos with me.

That's not called "trying to help someone". That's called a sales funnel. You even sent me a few follow up texts after I started ignoring you, as if I was a part of your email newsletter, lol.

Such, such a caring friend.

***

But now I got annoyed because of you repeatedly talking down to me and trying to demean me by pointing out how superior your knowledge is. And we started talking about coaches and stuff, so I decided to bring it up.

52 minutes ago, flowboy said:

Why do you assume I pretended?

Idk, maybe you had friends and family who charged you an hourly rate for spending time with you, but that's not what it looks like when someone sincerely care about you.

My interaction with you can be basically broken down into:

1. Cold approach

You: Hey man, I really resonated with your post, what's up
Me: Idk, kind of feeling like shit.
You: Oh no, why is that?
Me: well, I am really bothered by this thing and this thing
You: yeah, that makes total sense man. I understand why you would feel this way. Anyway, I am actually helping people deal with this kind of stuff. If you want we can have a 10 minute call and I can give you some tips.

Me, thinking to myself: shit, he just wants to sell me his course or something. Well, whatever, lets see where it goes.
 

2. The sales pitch

We have a call.

I share my story a little bit -> you try to sign me up for paid sessions

You might have given me some self-help tips which I don't remember by know (thank you, there is such a shortage of them on the internet), when I mostly just wanted some empathy and connection.

3. The newsletter

I decide to just quietly ignore you after the call. While you are sharing your youtube videos, podcasts, and 7 day retreats with me.

***

THIS IS NOT WHAT ACTUALLY CARING AND TRYING TO HELP A PERSON LOOKS LIKE. That's why I said "pretend".
 

1 hour ago, flowboy said:

You've made a weird twist in your mind at that moment, thinking: "Oh, he's got a service he charges for. Everything up to this point must have been fake".

I mean. No. The issue is not you having a service that you charge money for. The issue is our whole interaction being your sales funnel.

If you actually cared, and bothered to spend time being a friend to me, just emphasizing, no need for some fancy self-help advise. And then were like: "Btw, I have those paid coaching sessions. If you ever feel like working on you situation more in depth, feel free to ask me about it if you will be interested"

Then I would have no problem with it.

I would also have no problem with you just straight up DM-ing me and being like: "hey man, I am offering this coaching program for 1000 bucks. I saw you post and thought that you might be interested".

What bothers me is you playing these stupid games. And, up until this point, still trying to gaslight me into thinking that you somehow deeply cared about me.

1 hour ago, flowboy said:

I offered a chat. I made time for you. I gave you free tips and insights. And I cared.

Oh, thank you. The next time I go for a "free chat with a car salesman" I will make sure to express my gratitude for him making this huge sacrifice and "making time for me", for purely altruistic reason. And even smiling at me

1 hour ago, flowboy said:

I do tons of free sessions and spend sometimes 3 hours with someone.

Do you want me to give you a medal or something?

1 hour ago, flowboy said:

I give you what I promised, and more.

Which is what? I am curious, what exactly do you think you gave me? What is "more"?

1 hour ago, flowboy said:

And by the way, the people who said yes during that time, which is almost 2 years ago now?

Still in contact with them every week.

They're still glad they said yes.

Saying yes that day made a big impact on their life.

Meanwhile, here you are trying to cling to the concept of "self-love", which is perhaps the highest teaching in the universe, but it's also a glorified cope when using it for shadow/trauma issues.

Oh no, now I am going to regret this decision for the rest of my life.

 

1 hour ago, flowboy said:

Meanwhile, here you are trying to cling to the concept of "self-love", which is perhaps the highest teaching in the universe, but it's also a glorified cope when using it for shadow/trauma issues.

There, I said it. Self-love as a strategy for solving psychological problems is a cope.

There is a reason *actually* mentally healthy people, who aren't run by their repressed pain, don't need to talk about self-love and practice loving themselves everyday.

It's because love is abundant, it is baked in, it is your birthright, it is something that you never consciously need to give yourself... there is always enough self-love, so much so that you have no need for the concept.

IF you are not blocked by trauma energy.

You can't add self-love on top of trauma energy and call it healing.

That's a band-aid.

Have fun coping, paying for learning more coping, and making ad-hominem attacks at people with real answers.

Yeah, and then you wonder why you have communication issues when you talk like that. You wrote all this based on what? Me saying two sentences about self-love? One of which wasn't even addressed to you.

You have no idea what I mean by self-love. You have no idea what I mean by practicing self-love. You have no idea what my beliefs are, what teaching and methods I am following, what my practice is.

You have no idea what I am coping with, what I am not coping with, what I am paying money for, what I am learning. You are the one making ad-hominem attacks at me through my imaginary coping strategies.

You are just projecting your own bullshit beliefs onto me.

You even claim that you have "real answers", lol. I see that being too humble is not an issue for you.

[Something Funny]

@flowboy there is this food delivey service in Europe, called Wolt. It's an Ubereats / Doordash analog. And their fucking customer support is more humane and empathetic than you are.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Something Funny

[flowboy]

9 hours ago, Something Funny said:

You basically listened to me describing what I struggled with for 5 minutes and than proceeded to offer me you coaching for a 1000 bucks. That's all it was. Oh, and you also shared a few of your youtube videos with me.

I literally have never done a call like that. You either have me confused with someone else, or your memory is really bad. I always offer tons of personalised attention and give my perspective and advice. For free. And those calls lasted at least 30 minutes each.

I make sure that people come away with some value from that call, because I don’t know that I will offer them anything more. I can’t help everyone.

You, I clearly should not have offered you anything because your mind is filled with negative assumptions towards coaches in general. One cannot be a caring coach in your mind. 
 

My best guess is that you have some sort of issue with coaches in general, or the self help industry, or I don’t know what, but you decided to project them all onto me and throw me under the bus for it.

Did you watch the videos I sent?

Did you write down the tips I gave you?

 

I bet you didn’t.

That would interfere with upholding you story that it was “just a pitch” and I was “just another uncaring coach”.

dude, you are so full of shit ? 

 

[flowboy]

9 hours ago, Something Funny said:

You even claim that you have "real answers", lol. I see that being too humble is not an issue for you.

Yes, and you know what, I do. I do have real answers. And they are earned through experience and study.

That doesn’t mean I’m the wisest, or most experienced, far from it. I’m happy to humble myself to anyone with a modicum of experience and study in my field. I’m happy to step down from my pedestal if you had displayed a tiny bit of sense, of psychological insight.

I’d be happy to talk about actual content… but I can’t because clearly you are talking out of your ass.

And I pointed this out to you - the fact that you do not have knowledge of that which you speak of - upon which you started attacking me for being a coach and offering you something years ago.

That’s really mature of you *ahem*

Trying to make me look like shit and dragging me through the mud instead of acknowledging that you haven’t read a single book cover to cover about that which you were so sure “was an asspull”

When you are so arrogant that you are willing to defend your wilful ignorance with attacks like these..

You are just, for all intents and purposes, an idiot.