Enlightenment Is Actual and not an Illusion ?

[Loveeee]

16 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

God damn, Leo got hella sexy.

So that's what he's been up to 

[UnlovingGod]

I think, anyone should do what he wants to do. ?

Gotta respect, what you want out of life and what anyone else wants out of life.

And what you get is what you need.

[r0ckyreed]

Enlightenment is an illusion. Being is always prior to knowing. Existence is infinite whereas understanding is finite/limited. There will always be more things for you to grasp because no matter how much you try to grasp reality, you will get no more near the end than when you began because that is the nature of infinitude.

[UnlovingGod]

Just now, r0ckyreed said:

Enlightenment is an illusion. Being is always prior to knowing. Existence is infinite whereas understanding is finite/limited. There will always be more things for you to grasp because no matter how much you try to grasp reality, you will get no more near the end than when you began because that is the nature of infinitude.

I don't want to put words into anyone, but he said enlightenment is actual not absolute truth or whatever, it's actual. I mean that's right and I think I get that this actuality of enlightenment is something you can take quite serious.

[r0ckyreed]

27 minutes ago, UnlovingGod said:

I don't want to put words into anyone, but he said enlightenment is actual not absolute truth or whatever, it's actual. I mean that's right and I think I get that this actuality of enlightenment is something you can take quite serious.

We disagree on the definitions of enlightenment. A cat is in actuality but its understanding of its true nature and of existence is limited. Enlightenment means to enlight or to be full of light or consciousness. To be able to see reality as it is and understand that. There is no way we can do that because to be human is to always see it through the lenses of self-deception and bias. You cannot get rid of bias/self-deception. The Devil is always there. You cannot kill him. Otherwise, God couldn’t exist either because The God is the Devil. 

Self-deception is what creates this human experience. This means that as long as you are in form, you can never know what formless is. And I haven’t even scratched the surface.

[Osaid]

The reason why enlightenment seems like an illusion to you guys is because you're comparing it to your awakenings, which ARE relative "illusions." All you guys have ever known in regards to spirituality is just endless awakenings, that's your method. And so you project that same standard onto enlightenment.

You're thinking: "Oh yeah I've had lots of awakenings, but I've also had much deeper ones! And all of them showed me different aspects of truth and reality! So there's no way that this singular awakening called 'enlightenment' is final!" 

You think enlightenment is just some state of consciousness or awakening among many. That's how awakenings and "higher consciousness" work, but enlightenment is something different. There is nothing higher than the absolute truth. Enlightenment is realizing what is absolutely true. Not an aspect or facet of it, the actual thing. There were never "different aspects" of truth, of course not. To say otherwise means that you have abandoned the idea of reality being one thing.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Osaid

[Inliytened1]

12 minutes ago, Osaid said:

The reason why enlightenment seems like an illusion to you guys is because you're comparing it to your awakenings, which ARE relative "illusions." All you guys have ever known in regards to spirituality is just endless awakenings, that's your method. And so you project that same standard onto enlightenment.

You're thinking: "Oh yeah I've had lots of awakenings, but I've also had much deeper ones! And all of them showed me different aspects of truth and reality! So there's no way that this singular awakening called 'enlightenment' is final!" 

You think enlightenment is just some state of consciousness or awakening among many. That's how awakenings and "higher consciousness" work, but enlightenment is something different. There is nothing higher than the absolute truth. Enlightenment is realizing what is absolutely true. Not an aspect or facet of it, the actual thing. There were never "different aspects" of truth, of course not. To say otherwise means that you have abandoned the idea of reality being one thing.

Yeah but even I will admit it will not come in one realization or one mystical state.  There will be multiple realizations but it is one in that it should happen within the span of a few months or less. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Inliytened1

[UnlovingGod]

The problem I see, religions in every regard, act like political institutions and that's quite interesting to study the make up of various religions such as buddhism. I mean there's probably big differences between eastern and western buddhism. As western buddhist you probably don't have a strong sense of community, it's mere loosely intercorralated political actors that come together and get authority out of being enlightened. Life is good as enlightened Buddhist, because there are other Buddhist that confirm your enlightment. Just out of confirmation, that is rigoursly rooted in traditions, you get that good life. And western buddhist do hold this respect they get from the authority eastern Buddhist excert. At the end without buddhism there would not be enlightment. Even though you would have all these individual realizations. And certainly meditation trains yourself to be more calm. It's a way better frame of life than christians, who by their epistemology never reach Christ councioussness. And live to die for their masters. In that sense Buddhism has way more upward mobility. I just want a civil discussion and not offend anyone.

[Razard86]

14 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

Enough said.  Let's let it flow.

Enlightenment is not an illusion - and Buddhism comes closer to Truth than any other religion due to its understanding of "no self".

Any who feel enlightenment is an illusion are themselves under a deep illusion. 

Illusion....and lack of illusion is a distinction you are creating. Why? Because everything is made up of the same thing....nothing, nonsense, pure imagination. So talking about illusion or lack of illusion...is an egoic game. The only reason God can be said to be the truth....is because God is the only authority there is.....God is truth by default LOL.....

So in truth, illusion doesn't exist. Why? Because God's powers are absolute, if God believes in illusion...that illusion becomes truth. This is why in all honesty all debates and arguments are silly....because every perspective of God is lost in its own mental configuration.

[vibv]

I would never call myself enlightened.

but if your so-called enlightenment leads to not caring what happens here - because it is just a dream and an illusion, all that’s left is to explore, but who cares - I DON‘T WANT IT!

How could this be the highest thing of it turns me in some sort of content nihilist that tells others that „they didn’t get it yet“, but if they did, they would stop being passionate and just stay in that enlightened Xanax-haze. THAT‘S NOT LOVE!

I don’t feel compassion and realness there, it just feels so pretentious. This can not be IT. Where’s the LOVE? Fuck enlightenment — Do you know LOVE? 

If it’s not LOVE it’s worth NOTHING.

[Yimpa]

Everyone learns at their own pace. If you would have asked me just a year ago if nonduality and enlightenment is the highest teaching, I would have said yes.

I’m also not claiming that I am perfect. There’s plenty of stuff in the human domain that I lack experience with!

Edited September 24, 2023 by Yimpa

[Razard86]

2 hours ago, vibv said:

I would never call myself enlightened.

but if your so-called enlightenment leads to not caring what happens here - because it is just a dream and an illusion, all that’s left is to explore, but who cares - I DON‘T WANT IT!

How could this be the highest thing of it turns me in some sort of content nihilist that tells others that „they didn’t get it yet“, but if they did, they would stop being passionate and just stay in that enlightened Xanax-haze. THAT‘S NOT LOVE!

I don’t feel compassion and realness there, it just feels so pretentious. This can not be IT. Where’s the LOVE? Fuck enlightenment — Do you know LOVE? 

If it’s not LOVE it’s worth NOTHING.

Love is nothing....and also worth....is a creation of the ego. Everything is made of the same thing, so value is just the personal preference of the ego. The point of realizing this, is to stop you from getting lost in ego wars over personal values because all values are subjective. 

When you truly realize that it is all a dream....then you realize that all meaning is a subjective creation. This means that truth....is subjectively defined. This stops you from getting locked in ANY paradigm because all distinctions....are just egoic games. The only distinction...is the one you create. Until this is realized you will live in the world of good and evil and will suffer heaven and hell....

Edited September 24, 2023 by Razard86

[vibv]

@Razard86 Jury is still out on that one ?

Of course it's all imaginary.. but that doesn't stop it from being real. I know you know that. That doesn't stop us from being deluded. We're all in the same boat here. Worse than being deluded are people that claim they aren't, that's a whole 'nother stage of delusion.

Is the distinction between delusion and truth imaginary? Of course, but so is the distinction between imagination and reality.

Alls I'm saying is: We're not done here. And that's actually beautiful.

There IS reason to get mad out of love. It's about breaking through our collective complacency.

[Princess Arabia]

3 minutes ago, vibv said:

@Razard86 Jury is still out on that one ?

Of course it's all imaginary.. but that doesn't stop it from being real. I know you know that. That doesn't stop us from being deluded. We're all in the same boat here. Worse than being deluded are people that claim they aren't, that's a whole 'nother stage of delusion.

Is the distinction between delusion and truth imaginary? Of course, but so is the distinction between imagination and reality.

Alls I'm saying is: We're not done here. And that's actually beautiful.

There IS reason to get mad out of love. It's about breaking through our collective complacency.

Explain this to me please. If God is dreaming up time and space and Enlightenment is the recognition that you are God, can't it just happen in an instant. Why does God need days, weeks, months, years after its recognition of itself that it is itself and how is that even possible if time is imaginary. I read this whole thread and this question just came to mind.

[Butters]

5 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

Explain this to me please. If God is dreaming up time and space and Enlightenment is the recognition that you are God, can't it just happen in an instant. Why does God need days, weeks, months, years after its recognition of itself that it is itself and how is that even possible if time is imaginary. I read this whole thread and this question just came to mind.

To keep itself entertained. Are you not entertained? 

You want a logical explanation, what if there isn't one? 

Idk either tbh ?

[vibv]

1 minute ago, Princess Arabia said:

Explain this to me please. If God is dreaming up time and space and Enlightenment is the recognition that you are God, can't it just happen in an instant. Why does God need days, weeks, months, years after its recognition of itself that it is itself and how is that even possible if time is imaginary. I read this whole thread and this question just came to mind.

Because it chooses so. It could awaken right now, but then we wouldn't be here. There's no need to hurry. It's about the process. We love ALL of it, the delusion, the suffering, the awakenings, the red herrings, the doubt, the ecstacy, the misunderstandings, the epiphanies, the disputes and disagreements, all the frustrations and all the joys and pleasures.

We're gonna do it, the process will keep unfolding itself and TOTAL Awakening will happen, that's not just individual but COLLECTIVE. And then we're gonna do it all over again. That's the dance of God. Welcome to Eternity.

[Butters]

18 minutes ago, vibv said:

Because it chooses so. It could awaken right now, but then we wouldn't be here. There's no need to hurry. It's about the process. We love ALL of it, the delusion, the suffering, the awakenings, the red herrings, the doubt, the ecstacy, the misunderstandings, the epiphanies, the disputes and disagreements, all the frustrations and all the joys and pleasures.

We're gonna do it, the process will keep unfolding itself and TOTAL Awakening will happen, that's not just individual but COLLECTIVE. And then we're gonna do it all over again. That's the dance of God. Welcome to Eternity.

❤️?

[r0ckyreed]

What is the duality between enlightenment and self- deception? I’ll give you a hint. There isn’t one. If reality is imaginary, then your enlightenments are more imagination within imagination. No such thing as “final” enlightenment because that itself is a self-deception. Reality is infinite and understanding is finite.

Edited September 24, 2023 by r0ckyreed

[Water by the River]

6 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

What is the duality between enlightenment and self- deception? I’ll give you a hint. There isn’t one. If reality is imaginary, then your enlightenments are more imagination within imagination. No such thing as “final” enlightenment because that itself is a self-deception. Reality is infinite and understanding is finite.

And all those who proclaimed they realized their True Nature and the nature of all possible realms/Reality (aka Absolute Reality) in Full Enlightenment, which happened in all culutures in all centuries since millenia, and which tended to manifest extraordinary states and impacts on their fellow humans and surroundings...

Well, all of them were deluded.... ?!

And another misunderstanding concerning the final nature of Full Enlightenment: The exploration of Manifestation (and besides the Absolute Infinite Reality everything perceivable is manifestation arising in it) or existence as a mindstream or perspective or being that has realized its eternal true nature (which is of the same essence as all of infinite Reality/Being) doesnt stop, it rather starts, but from a fundamentally different basis: from caterpillar to butterfly. The former separate self illusion truly dead (no exaggeration, replaced by the potential to truly live as the Nondual Totality/Being). Can the caterpillar anticipate the existence as butterfly? Apparently a rather difficult task. Actually impossible, because if it would it immediately would be a butterfly.

So True Enlightenment is not the end of the exploration and celebration of infinite manifestation/imagination, but the start of it.But since ones True Nature as the Pure Impersonal Infinite Nondual (in infinite unity with this and all worlds arising in IT) Suchness/Awareness/Reality/Being is present/accesssable all the time (since the separate self building blocks creating the illusion and preventing nondual states have been transcened/cut off, like localization, center, beliefs of being anything specific, all I-thoughts and I-feelings)... all of that happens without any remaining delusion/ignorance (PURE empty impersonal Awareness/Totality/Being) and without suffering/grasping for ever more experiences/states/understandings. Or in short: It feels very blissful, while anything that came before sucked/caused suffering and dissatisfaction (in cycles) quite a lot.

So its not either (full) Enlightenment OR exploring infinitely more of Infinite Reality. But its enjonying, exploring and celebrating all of that, but after coming home to ones True Nondual Being. No need to construct any either/or. That was not your point, but a perspective of others which I adress here.

So allow me one question: who in his right mind would reject the wonderful potential of this structure/stage (or manifestation of very continues wonderful states/insights into Truth and bliss)?

Short form: Reality/Absolute/God is perfectly well able to understand and realize its essence (and that of all Reality also), and to understand how it fooled itself with this dream and its nearly endless illusion-mechanism. Who if not God/Reality/Being could wake up to its true Being if not itself? And if that can be done right here and now sobre without any remaining filters/illusions in the way it is called (full) Enlightenment. And IT either realizes itself fully or only facets (which is nothing other than not fully woken up).

Selling Water by the River

 

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Water by the River

[vibv]

@Water by the River I agree that there is a point where the suffering and seeking, that's a result of being identified as a separate entity from the rest, ends and true exploration finally begins.

But that's not the final awakening. You're just assuming that because you can't conceive of anything that could be beyond that.

If it was final you wouldn't be here anymore and we couldn't have this discussion. You realized your true nature, congratulations, but why are there still people that haven't? How can there be different people with that awakening that all disagree with each other? How can it be that I disagree with you? It's essentially disagreeing with yourself, isn't it?

You don't have all the pieces of the puzzle because you're still human. Humanity is one. If just one human hasn't awoken yet we're not done here. Because that means YOU are not fully awoken.

If awakening is optional, did you have to awaken? Why did you, if it's perfect anyway? Aren't you able to enjoy the whole process more now? That seems pretty amazing to not do it tbh, doesn't it?

There's a direction, evolution. You would choose awakening every time, as soon as you're conscious enough. How can you deny that process that clearly has a direction?