About the last Insight post and general critique of Leo

[Forestluv]

13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The higher degree of consciousness you reach, the more physical reality will melt before your eyes into a liquid mindscape.

Higher consciousness is liquid, lower consciousness is solid.

If you become conscious enough, your couch can literally melt into a talking dragon. This is a good example of what I mean by "higher consciousness".

You ain't really conscious until you start seeing dragons.

One time I became so conscious I started seeing dragons and demons crawling between the gaps in empty space. That's when things get interesting. That's when you really start to understand CONSCIOUSNESS.

I experience a curious aspect within these highly liquid realms: a curiosity of creation. With an underlying awareness of construct awareness, there can be a sense of being the creator of the dragons. Perhaps akin to the "Magician" level within Cook-Greuter's "Construct-Aware" stage. There is a sense of "me" creating, yet if that "me" tries to take more control, the creation is usually lost. I've discovered a few dynamics at play:

1) Complete dissolving of self and emergence of Creation that is appearing.

2) A sense of "Co-creation" in which there is a sense of self, yet also a Higher Self. This would be similar to a lucid dream in which the self realizes it's dreaming and begins co-creating with a Higher Dreamer. Yet there is a very fine balance. If the self tries to take too much control, the Co-creation is lost. 

3) A sense of full control over the dream. As an example, one time I was doing Yin Yoga (long hold stretches) and went into the "Co-creation" realm. I noticed that I could start transforming the pain of the stretch into different forms. At first, the "I" surrendered into what was transforming and allowed it to happen. Yet the "I" gained the ability of limited control - as if it was a magic wand. Yet it wasn't something I could intentionally do, it was more of a gift / grace / higher wisdom. I then had full control and able to do whatever I wanted with the pain sensations. I transformed them into the texture and taste of chocolate. I transformed them to flairs emanating from my joints. I could make them chilly snowflakes or a warm whirlpool. . . When I eventually snapped out of it, I realized I held that posture for about an hour and went way too far. I was in severe pain and I must have strained tendons / ligaments / muscles - I was in pain for about a week. . . I'm convinced that I could have been naked under a pile of snow and felt no discomfort as I was creating. In this case, the saying "Don't forget the body" rings true.

[SOUL]

19 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

YOU are reality and you are conscious to various degrees.

Everything is consciousness but not equally conscious.

Awakening requires more consciousness than non-Awakening. Otherwise there would be no point to spiritual practice.

Just no.

Consciousness is exactly like a light bulb. It shines in many degrees of brightness. All light is light, but not all light is equally bright.

If you believe you are at max brightness you have lost yo mind.

How bright a light bulb is doesn't reveal to us the qualities of electricity that flows through it in creating the light, it shows us the qualities of the bulb. So pointing to the bulb in trying to explain electricity fails to recognize the nature of electricity available isn't shown to us through the amount or quality of light the bulb displays.

Us as the metaphorical bulb with how much 'awakeness' someone has doesn't tell us how much consciousness is available to us, it just shows how much consciousness, or 'brightness', we show. A rock and us have the same exact amount and quality of consciousness available, but obviously there is a difference in how aware, awakened or 'conscious' of it we display.

So, yes, everything is consciousness but not equally conscious yet the degree of conscious something or someone is, does not reveal the absolute fullness of consciousness that exists and permeates throughout reality which is not dependent on the 'bulbs' ability to display it. It really is surprising how simple obvious this is and still is so illusive to grasp.

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

I experience a curious aspect within these highly liquid realms: a curiosity of creation. With an underlying awareness of construct awareness, there can be a sense of being the creator of the dragons. Perhaps akin to the "Magician" level within Cook-Greuter's "Construct-Aware" stage. There is a sense of "me" creating, yet if that "me" tries to take more control, the creation is usually lost. I've discovered a few dynamics at play:

1) Complete dissolving of self and emergence of Creation that is appearing.

2) A sense of "Co-creation" in which there is a sense of self, yet also a Higher Self. This would be similar to a lucid dream in which the self realizes it's dreaming and begins co-creating with a Higher Dreamer. Yet there is a very fine balance. If the self tries to take too much control, the Co-creation is lost. 

3) A sense of full control over the dream. As an example, one time I was doing Yin Yoga (long hold stretches) and went into the "Co-creation" realm. I noticed that I could start transforming the pain of the stretch into different forms. At first, the "I" surrendered into what was transforming and allowed it to happen. Yet the "I" gained the ability of limited control - as if it was a magic wand. Yet it wasn't something I could intentionally do, it was more of a gift / grace / higher wisdom. I then had full control and able to do whatever I wanted with the pain sensations. I transformed them into the texture and taste of chocolate. I transformed them to flairs emanating from my joints. I could make them chilly snowflakes or a warm whirlpool. . . When I eventually snapped out of it, I realized I held that posture for about an hour and went way too far. I was in severe pain and I must have strained tendons / ligaments / muscles - I was in pain for about a week. . . I'm convinced that I could have been naked under a pile of snow and felt no discomfort as I was creating. In this case, the saying "Don't forget the body" rings true.

Yeah, of course. You're tapping into the Infinite Imagination aspect of Consciousness. It's like a primodial soup of imagination and it tends to be very choatic, unlike the material dream.

10 minutes ago, SOUL said:

How bright a light bulb is doesn't reveal to us the qualities of electricity that flows through it in creating the light, it shows us the qualities of the bulb. So pointing to the bulb in trying to explain electricity fails to recognize the nature of electricity available isn't shown to us through the amount or quality of light the bulb displays.

This is a bad metaphor because in the case of Consciousness everything merges into One.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Leo Gura

[SOUL]

4 hours ago, Razard86 said:

Actions reveal how you really feel...if you want to be left out...why did you respond?

You replied to my post that replied to someone else and then seemed to get manic about our subsequent exchange. Yes, actions reveal how you feel, that is something you don't need me for so leave me out of it. Are we done here?

[SOUL]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

This is a bad metaphor because in the case of Consciousness everything merges into One.

I used the metaphor you used, if it's bad, then why did you use it?

It is kind of bad because the more resistance a bulb has the more light it shows which is the opposite with awakening. The less resistance we have the more consciousness it reveals in us, but it's still obvious that our degree of conscious awakening doesn't change the absolute of consciousness.

Again, it was your metaphor.

[Leo Gura]

1 minute ago, SOUL said:

I used the metaphor you used, if it's bad, then why did you use it?

You turned my nondual metaphor into a dualistic one, thereby ruining it.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Leo Gura

[SOUL]

19 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You turned my nondual metaphor into a dualistic one, thereby ruining it.

You really just said that? Just wow, too funny. Maybe you can explain to me how you perceive that your use was nondual and mine was dual...this should be interesting. Haha

I would love to continue this exchange, but right now I have a long day of enjoying the amazing weather ahead of me so will return tonight and read any replies to my responses. I won't guarantee I'll have the energy to reply to them until morning, though.

Peace brother.

Edited September 24, 2023 by SOUL

[Razard86]

38 minutes ago, SOUL said:

You replied to my post that replied to someone else and then seemed to get manic about our subsequent exchange. Yes, actions reveal how you feel, that is something you don't need me for so leave me out of it. Are we done here?

Your doing it again....I told you....lol you can't help yourself. I'm never done... cause I don't have any problem the point is if you have a problem just disengage. You are acting like I have power over you. Are we done here? That's up to you....disengaging is always an option and clearly...you don't want to disengage. I am loving this engagement because again..I don't see a problem....are you getting it?

[Scholar]

53 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

I experience a curious aspect within these highly liquid realms: a curiosity of creation. With an underlying awareness of construct awareness, there can be a sense of being the creator of the dragons. Perhaps akin to the "Magician" level within Cook-Greuter's "Construct-Aware" stage. There is a sense of "me" creating, yet if that "me" tries to take more control, the creation is usually lost. I've discovered a few dynamics at play:

1) Complete dissolving of self and emergence of Creation that is appearing.

2) A sense of "Co-creation" in which there is a sense of self, yet also a Higher Self. This would be similar to a lucid dream in which the self realizes it's dreaming and begins co-creating with a Higher Dreamer. Yet there is a very fine balance. If the self tries to take too much control, the Co-creation is lost. 

3) A sense of full control over the dream. As an example, one time I was doing Yin Yoga (long hold stretches) and went into the "Co-creation" realm. I noticed that I could start transforming the pain of the stretch into different forms. At first, the "I" surrendered into what was transforming and allowed it to happen. Yet the "I" gained the ability of limited control - as if it was a magic wand. Yet it wasn't something I could intentionally do, it was more of a gift / grace / higher wisdom. I then had full control and able to do whatever I wanted with the pain sensations. I transformed them into the texture and taste of chocolate. I transformed them to flairs emanating from my joints. I could make them chilly snowflakes or a warm whirlpool. . . When I eventually snapped out of it, I realized I held that posture for about an hour and went way too far. I was in severe pain and I must have strained tendons / ligaments / muscles - I was in pain for about a week. . . I'm convinced that I could have been naked under a pile of snow and felt no discomfort as I was creating. In this case, the saying "Don't forget the body" rings true.

I had basically this happen in my first trip.

 

There is something interesting I learned during Lucid-Dreaming. I generally have quite a lot of lucid dreams, and for the past 2 years my goal was to improve my mind's eye visualization abilities. I was taught there there is a similarity between intentional visualization (which I am very bad at, almost aphantasic) and dreaming. When learning to visualize, you have to almost put yourself into a trance like state, and it is important that you don't try to "control" what you want to visualize. This is tricky, because the mind only knows control, that's how it goes through life. I control my body and my mind to achieve things, but how can I control my way into visualization?

It is similar to meditation, in that the more you try to control, less it will work.

 

With imagination, you do not manifest through control, but rather through intention and believe. So, to visualize a cat, you have to convince yourself that you are seeing a cat. You don't actually create the cat by some direct means, rather, you simply imagine you were seeing the cat until you convinced your brain to such a degree that the cat appeared as a visual phenomenon in your mind's eye.

 

I took this knowledge and applied it in lucid dreaming, because I would over and over have the problem that once I was lucid and tried to steer my reality, the dream would collapse and I would wake up. I was trying to be too controlling. So, the next dream I employed a trick. I had a certain dream scenario, and then I took a binocular out of my pocket and I convinced myself that looking through the binocular I would see another place. And it worked, as I looked through it, I suddenly found myself in the place I wanted to be, because I somehow convinced my brain that it was what I would see through the binoculars. I didn't control myself into it, rather I used the binocular as an object to project my intention and belief onto.

It is like drinking orange juice during a bad LSD trip. If you drink orange juice, your bad trip will instantly transform into a good one. This will happen if you are convinced of it happening. If you truly believe the orange juice has that effect, you can use the orange juice to actually alter the trajectory of the trip.

Usually, the way we employ control is through left brained type of means. Though, the subconscious and dreamlike state cannot be controlled this way. It requires vision, intention and belief. Obviously it's hard to describe in words, the true difference, but once you kind of grasp Left-Brain vs Right-Brain Mode of being, you get a good sense what the difference is. One is trying to control, the other is convincing oneself such that the dream gets changed into that.

 

The dream is determined by your belief-state. If you are scared and paranoid, the dream will become scarier. And if you try to control it, you wake up because the dream state is not a brain-state of control, but of complete relaxation. This is because the dream state requires a certain brain-wave state, which is different the conscious-control brain-wave state.

 

This teaches us the value of shamanic objects, totems and so forth. Objects into which we concentrate certain mental belief structures, intentions and emotions. By tying those aspects to the objects, we can, during a trip, use those objects to steer the experience, which is what shamans have been doing as well. It is similar to using an external memory palace.

 

 

By the way, Leo has reported for a long time that he never came into contact with beings during his trips. The reason for this is his bias towards left-brain-mode. It is also what makes him overthink and overvalue contemplation. He is only now kind of discovering the more relaxed, right-brain type of mode of cognition.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Scholar

[Bobby_2021]

1 hour ago, vibv said:

The only reason you may feel otherwise is because your understanding hasn't penetrated into Perfection, Beauty & Love enough yet. But even that is part of Perfection.

A nightmare is also perfection. You would not be able to know that at the moment you are in it. 

[Forestluv]

51 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yeah, of course. You're tapping into the Infinite Imagination aspect of Consciousness. It's like a primodial soup of imagination and it tends to be very choatic, unlike the material dream.

In addition to chaotic spaces, there are spaces in which there are naturally flows. . .  One time I was in a forest and the environment transformed into a mystical realm of dark magic, spells and ancestral spirits. This could have become very chaotic, yet it became a curious exploration in which I was shown a new way of relating to reality. A way many people have and do. 

In addition to an Infinite Imagination aspect of Consciousness, this space can also include aspects of Infinite Insight, Wisdom and Understanding. ? 

[Leo Gura]

35 minutes ago, Scholar said:

By the way, Leo has reported for a long time that he never came into contact with beings during his trips. The reason for this is his bias towards left-brain-mode. It is also what makes him overthink and overvalue contemplation. He is only now kind of discovering the more relaxed, right-brain type of mode of cognition.

My God. The nonsense you guys concoct.

Don't make me chase you with a broom.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Leo Gura

[LSD-Rumi]

42 minutes ago, Scholar said:

By the way, Leo has reported for a long time that he never came into contact with beings during his trips. The reason for this is his bias towards left-brain-mode. It is also what makes him overthink and overvalue contemplation. He is only now kind of discovering the more relaxed, right-brain type of mode of cognition

Leo does'n't talk to entities, Leo become the entity. What was it? Oh an alien mouse 

Now jokes aside, I think Leo cognition type massively improved after doing psychedelics. He became more poetic and sensational, remmeber that poetic episode he released once? God, it was amazing.

Edited September 24, 2023 by LSD-Rumi

[Forestluv]

45 minutes ago, Scholar said:

With imagination, you do not manifest through control, but rather through intention and believe. So, to visualize a cat, you have to convince yourself that you are seeing a cat. You don't actually create the cat by some direct means, rather, you simply imagine you were seeing the cat until you convinced your brain to such a degree that the cat appeared as a visual phenomenon in your mind's eye.

Though, the subconscious and dreamlike state cannot be controlled this way. It requires vision, intention and belief. 

I can see how intention and belief could be used to develop a particular SuperNormal ability, yet this is not my area of SuperNormal ability. That type of intention and belief could allow entry into an area, yet would actually be a major block to me and prevent me from entry into the area I describe. 

For example, there is no way I could enter a forest thinking “I believe this is a magical forest and I am a Shaman with SuperNatural powers. If I believe enough, it will manifest”. This won’t work for the space I describe since “Belief” assumes the unreal “appears” to be real because I tricked my mind to “believe” it’s real.  Yet the space I describe is as real as any other real, so the dynamic of belief prevents entry, because a “real vs imagined” dynamic is created. 

Rather, I would enter the forest and allow space for creation - and what arises, arises. If a magical forest appeared and I was a Shaman, thats as real as if I was walking through a “regular” forest with “ordinary” trees, birds, flowers and bees. They are both imaginary as well. 

[Leo Gura]

@Forestluv Enough fairy tales, you are supposed to be a respectable scientist!

[Forestluv]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Forestluv Enough fairy tales, you are supposed to be a respectable scientist!

Haha, yes. 
Years ago, I was a scientist trying to imagine being a mystic. Now I’m more of a mystic pretending I’m a scientist at work. So far my colleagues haven’t caught on to my act, yet they are vaguely aware something is going on behind the curtain. 

[Someone here]

@Forestluv holy shit dude I can’t  believe my eyes..where have you been hiding ?? 

[Scholar]

24 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

I can see how intention and belief could be used to develop a particular SuperNormal ability, yet this is not my area of SuperNormal ability. That type of intention and belief could allow entry into an area, yet would actually be a major block to me and prevent me from entry into the area I describe. 

For example, there is no way I could enter a forest thinking “I believe this is a magical forest and I am a Shaman with SuperNatural powers. If I believe enough, it will manifest”. This won’t work for the space I describe since “Belief” assumes the unreal “appears” to be real because I tricked my mind to “believe” it’s real.  Yet the space I describe is as real as any other real, so the dynamic of belief prevents entry, because a “real vs imagined” dynamic is created. 

Rather, I would enter the forest and allow space for creation - and what arises, arises. If a magical forest appeared and I was a Shaman, thats as real as if I was walking through a “regular” forest with “ordinary” trees, birds, flowers and bees. They are both imaginary as well. 

What I described is not a thinking process. When I say intention and belief, it is beyond a conceptual idea or belief. It is more like, looking at a cloud and seeing a face in it. That's the type of thing we are talking about, it is rooted far deeper.

Yes, it is as real as any other, because that's how realness is constructed. That "belief" is what realness is. You probably are not aware of the R-Mode vs L-Mode distinction, but what you refer to here is the L-Mode type of belief, not the R-Mode type of belief I am referring to.

 

The subtle thing here is that it does not arise from nowhere, much like your dreams dont arise from nowhere. Your perceptive state at the moment of a dream will determine the dream, and in the same way it will determine the trip you had. If you had been in a state of existential terror, you would have seen very different things, and the magical forest might be appeared as something completely different.

 

By imagination you just mean existence. So, it exists, as all things that exist must exist. There is no thing that exists more than any other thing that exists. And, part of L-Mode is a distinction between "actual existence" vs "subjective existence". If fully engaged in R-Mode, this type of distinction is no longer made. In fact, making that distinction can disrupt that state, as you described, in the same way it can disrupt a dream state. Both states are the same brain states.

[Michal__]

Wait till you realize there are ways to input anything into the imagination you explore in higher states and then when you get down to a normal state of consciousness it will still affect your life. 

Imagination consciousness gains are like magickal sprinkles that you can spend on your desire when you learn how to shape it :)))))

I do not know whether the method I use to do that would work for many people though. 

a) lower the amount of thoughts massively you have via Shamatha meditation

b) [thought about the way you want to manipulate reality] * 1000 000 = cloud your mind (won´t tell you how, it is related to affirmations though) 

Combine with intent (learn what is intent via using magick to become better at magick)

= replace all the space you freed via concentration by new ways to shape reality

This will make you extremely tired.

c) raise consciousness via psychedelic = clear your mind & charge the thought mush you created

The thoughts will get fueled, fullfiled and energized

d) continue with b) -> THIS WILL KILL THE WHOLE TRIP in a matter of minutes

e) redose / repeat again as many times as possible

f) week without magick -> the effects in reality will be many, many times stronger than with any magickal working you have done before 

Being able to do a) & b) is why it wont work for most of you ;-)

[FULL, UGLY, NORMAL MIND] -> [EMPTY, ZEN MIND] -> [THOUGHTS ABOUT _ * 1000 000] -> PSYCHEDELIC -> [THOUGHTS ABOUT _ * 1000 000] * INFINITE IMAGINATION -> [NORMAL SOBER MIND, changed by what just happened] -> REPEAT

This is not a theory, I am just describing accurately my new experiences.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Michal__

[Forestluv]

@Scholar I’m not disagreeing with the constructs you’ve created. There is truth and value within those constructs. There is infinite exploration within that structure, yet for me it’s also limiting on other planes of expansion. 
 

My mind is highly fluid, so I don’t resonate with definitions and statements of what is, is. To me, everything you stated of what IS above, is true within that framework. Yet it can also be dissolved, partially or fully. And then re-molded into many different forms. 
 

I’m not saying you are wrong or another view is more right or better. 

This thought below gives strong contrast among mindspaces.

27 minutes ago, Scholar said:

By imagination you just mean existence. 

First, this assumes a knowing of meaning for another. How do you know my meanings of “imagination” and “existence”? I’m not saying you are wrong. I’m saying it is a contracted mindspace. The idea is followed by a lengthy description of a structure to hold imagination and existence. There seems to be  a lot of insights within that structure. I’d actually like to play around with some of the points you make, yet your descriptions seem very very restrictive. To me, there is a lot of rigid “this is how it is”. It’s brilliant within an area, yet it’s not how my mind works. My mind doesn’t like to dwell within solid constructs. It likes to continually create, de-create and re-create. Being beholden within a mind structure is like being in prison to me.