Free Will is the proof that YOU ARE. That there is a Self.

[Schizophonia]

Today, god gave me a big wink 

[Soul Flight]

I suspect there is no free will. We are here to observe the unfolding. Allan Watts said the big bang is still banging. We are part of the explosion. We are only a few seconds into a grenade exploding.

I suspect this is why there are no aliens in the universe or AI. Once you get super smart you realize there is no free will. You can prove it with advanced science. You can either get really depressed about it, go insane, or stop doing anything and enjoy the bliss and euphoria. Maybe god has no free will either. Maybe aliens or AI or god can figure out a way to escape the universe and get real true free will.

[Scholar]

On 19.9.2023 at 5:58 PM, Arthogaan said:

Some users here on the forum (who I respect ) often like to claim that there is no self, there is no You and that Reality just is. That reality just happens and to put any "You/I" into that is a delusion. And I want to argue against that with the notion of Free Will. 

Of course I am not speaking about the Ego which is just an illusion/effect of You misperceiving what you Are. Just like rainbow is an illusion of light hitting against the water particles, the ego is the illusion of You hitting against the concepts, drama and life-story.

You (as pure consciousness) can decide in each moment to focus your attention on Yourself (being aware of awareness itself, meditation) or on thoughts and concepts inside of consciousness. This free will proves agency. It proves that there is an agent here. You.

People that claim that you cannot say that, that reality just is, could argue that you do not make that decision to meditate, that it just happens on itself, that it is just reality being reality. But that is delusion. That is a concept. An idea. THE DIRECT EXPERIENCE CLEARLY SHOWS THAT YOU CAN MAKE THAT DECISION ANY SECOND. In each moment you can decide to meditate, to focus your attention on Consciousness. To focus You onto You. To say that you didn't make that decision, that it just happened is ignoring the direct experience and creating an idea. 

Free Agency is a fundamental property of Consciousness/God/You. It is always with You. Just like in a nightly dream, when you are asleep and you believe that the dream just happens on its own you could say, "well the dream just is, there is no me". But in each moment you have the choice to become lucid, to awaken. Which shows you that you are The Mind, the creator of the dream. If there was no You, you would not have the possibility to make such decisions, because reality would just flow, would just be. But in each second you have the choice to awaken. In each second you can choose to focus on the beingness (on yourself). Which proves that YOU ARE.

The way I think of it, Free Will exists, but it has nothing to do with an agent. All free will means is Causeless Cause, or Divine Creativity, which is the ground of all Being.

If an agent could control their Will, it would not be free, it would be "Controlled Will".

 

Choice is illusion. And all Illusion is created through Free Will. That's the tricky thing to understand here, I think. The choice is created through Free Will, but so is all of existence. Every particle in the universe is created the same way. The laws of nature are created and sustained the same way.

And this is just existence, this is the flow of reality.

You cannot not focus on Being, because Being is just Existence. Any state of consciousness really is just a state of existence.

 

The idea of "Me" just means existence. It could not mean anything else. So, when you say "I make choices" this just means "Existence manifests choices". The Causeless Cause.

 

Free Will is always here as it is the Cause of all existence. Yet, Free Will can only be realized to the individuated consciousness through the dissolution of certain states of existence. At that point, the human mind will say "Oh my God, I am free! I am free! I have always been free!".

And then it is realized, that all choices ever made, that all of existence, was due to Free Will. Not anyones Free Will, but pure Free Will.

 

Your sense of free will just points to the Causeless Cause, an inkling of True and Absolute Freedom, which is the ultimate nature and source of all of reality, all of existence.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Scholar

[Princess Arabia]

15 minutes ago, Scholar said:

The way I think of it, Free Will exists, but it has nothing to do with an agent. All free will means is Causeless Cause, or Divine Creativity, which is the ground of all Being.

If an agent could control their Will, it would not be free, it would be "Controlled Will".

 

Choice is illusion. And all Illusion is created through Free Will. That's the tricky thing to understand here, I think. The choice is created through Free Will, but so is all of existence. Every particle in the universe is created the same way. The laws of nature are created and sustained the same way.

And this is just existence, this is the flow of reality.

You cannot not focus on Being, because Being is just Existence. Any state of consciousness really is just a state of existence.

 

The idea of "Me" just means existence. It could not mean anything else. So, when you say "I make choices" this just means "Existence manifests choices". The Causeless Cause.

 

Free Will is always here as it is the Cause of all existence. Yet, Free Will can only be realized to the individuated consciousness through the dissolution of certain states of existence. At that point, the human mind will say "Oh my God, I am free! I am free! I have always been free!".

And then it is realized, that all choices ever made, that all of existence, was due to Free Will. Not anyones Free Will, but pure Free Will.

 

Your sense of free will just points to the Causeless Cause, an inkling of True and Absolute Freedom, which is the ultimate nature and source of all of reality, all of existence.

Brilliant. Don't know if it is so, but brilliant, nonetheless. The whole thing makes sense and is also in alignment with my personal observation. So, it could just be biased, but you explained it so perfectly, the way i perceived it but in a way I probably wouldn't have been able to put into words. 

[Scholar]

5 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

Brilliant. Don't know if it is so, but brilliant, nonetheless. The whole thing makes sense and is also in alignment with my personal observation. So, it could just be biased, but you explained it so perfectly, the way i perceived it but in a way I probably wouldn't have been able to put into words. 

I am glad it is making sense for someone.

[Princess Arabia]

Just now, Scholar said:

I am glad it is making sense for someone.

I was also reading @Arthogaan's comments. The question I have with his arguments is, what about addictions. If people were abke to make choices at will, why is it so hard to quit addictions.

[Scholar]

4 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

I was also reading @Arthogaan's comments. The question I have with his arguments is, what about addictions. If people were abke to make choices at will, why is it so hard to quit addictions.

Addictions are being out of harmony with your own nature. Divine Will is sustaining your entire being, your body and mind and all process within it. You have a certain function, a certain end, as a result of your nature as a human being. An addiction is in conflict with the natural harmony of what you are.

So, in some sense, the less addiction you have, the less friction there is in your own nature, the more in-line with Free Will, or Divine Will, you are. This will be perceived as bliss or peace, or freedom. It is when you can follow your end.

This is the purpose of suffering. Suffering is the friction which keeps you on tract with the harmony you have designed as Divine Will. Your suffering is a necessary part of that harmony.

 

But, with enough wisdom and growth, you can come into harmony with yourself, and with the world, such that there is little to no friction. We could say that is the maximization of Free Will, which will naturally take place anyways. That is basically the history of evolution.

[Princess Arabia]

1 minute ago, Scholar said:

Addictions are being out of harmony with your own nature. Divine Will is sustaining your entire being, your body and mind and all process within it. You have a certain function, a certain end, as a result of your nature as a human being. An addiction is in conflict with the natural harmony of what you are.

So, in some sense, the less addiction you have, the less friction there is in your own nature, the more in-line with Free Will, or Divine Will, you are. This will be perceived as bliss or peace, or freedom. It is when you can follow your end.

This is the purpose of suffering. Suffering is the friction which keeps you on tract with the harmony you have designed as Divine Will. Your suffering is a necessary part of that harmony.

 

But, with enough wisdom and growth, you can come into harmony with yourself, and with the world, such that there is little to no friction. We could say that is the maximization of Free Will, which will naturally take place anyways. That is basically the history of evolution.

How do you view the topic of Enlightenment. Briefly, as I don't want to stray off-topic, even though it's similar.

[Scholar]

22 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

How do you view the topic of Enlightenment. Briefly, as I don't want to stray off-topic, even though it's similar.

I would say I have a pretty standard view. A falling away or dissolution of egoic structures.

[vibv]

12 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

Did he choose to be born with two functional hands so that he could write that answer out? Did he choose to know the English language? Did he choose to be aware of this forum? Did he choose to be born in this period of time so that he could be here responding to this thread? Did he choose for the internet to exist? Did he choose to have you write this post so that he could respond? His "decision" to respond is based on an infinite amount of factors that he did NOT choose.

How could you know that he didn't choose all that at some point?

12 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

I'm not saying there isn't a free will, but I AM saying that free will isn't something that you, as a person writing a post on a forum, own or possess or have, similarly to how you don't own mind, you don't own intelligence, you don't own consciousness. The words being written right now are an expression of the one ultimate truth, but they don't represent the whole. They're a fraction of the whole and thus aren't free from the whole and don't act by their own volition. Consciousness is absolute, humans aren't. Try manifesting an apple out of thin air right now and see how free "your" will truly is. You can't, because "your" will doesn't exist in a bubble separate from the will of everything else. "Your" will is only a slice of the cake.

If the Will Of God is total and free, why couldn't a slice of that not be free inside some limitation. Because it is a part of the unbound Free Will that can have no limitation because nothing exists outside of it, wouldn't it be logical that it inherited all of its features or qualities in a lesser way?

Edited September 20, 2023 by vibv

[vibv]

@DefinitelyNotARobot I definitely sense a free will in my direct experience, within certain human limitations of course. I think free and not free is not binary and there is a lot of gray area. I may be not free to teleport to mars as a human, but I'm totally free to go to the other side of my room right now. That's how I feel and see it.

[Guest Bazooka Jesus]

13 hours ago, Arthogaan said:

And I just say that "reality just is" is a shitty un-useful pointer

It is a pointer meant for those who are stuck in concepts. Such as the ones that you are rattling off.

Anyway, this discussion is getting a bit boring tbh. Have fun and see you around.

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by Bazooka Jesus

[vibv]

3 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

Because you're not paralyzed. Imagine if you needed a person to help you do that. Don't take your ability to make these kinds of decisions for granted.

I don't. But I would also say that it's impossible to be absolutely unfree.

From an absolute perspective you're of course always completely free, and the human limitations are merely imagined.

Edited September 20, 2023 by vibv

[r0ckyreed]

22 hours ago, SOUL said:

Well, if solipsism is true, then why did I create NPCs that have no choice but to tell me I don't have any free will...

Because you are INFINITE. If that couldn’t be possible then you wouldn’t be infinite.

Edited September 21, 2023 by r0ckyreed

[SOUL]

Look at all these artificial intelligence chat bots typing out stuff they think they understand...if only they knew that they didn't really know.

[Gabith]

@Arthogaan There's no free will, how can't you see ? 
It's so simple 

[Arthogaan]

3 hours ago, Gabith said:

@Arthogaan There's no free will, how can't you see ? 
It's so simple 

You chose to belief that. Which proves Free Will. You have a free will to delude yourself that you have no free will. How can't you see? It's so simple.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Arthogaan

[Arthogaan]

12 hours ago, Scholar said:

The way I think of it, Free Will exists, but it has nothing to do with an agent. All free will means is Causeless Cause, or Divine Creativity, which is the ground of all Being.

If an agent could control their Will, it would not be free, it would be "Controlled Will".

 

Choice is illusion. And all Illusion is created through Free Will. That's the tricky thing to understand here, I think. The choice is created through Free Will, but so is all of existence. Every particle in the universe is created the same way. The laws of nature are created and sustained the same way.

And this is just existence, this is the flow of reality.

You cannot not focus on Being, because Being is just Existence. Any state of consciousness really is just a state of existence.

 

The idea of "Me" just means existence. It could not mean anything else. So, when you say "I make choices" this just means "Existence manifests choices". The Causeless Cause.

 

Free Will is always here as it is the Cause of all existence. Yet, Free Will can only be realized to the individuated consciousness through the dissolution of certain states of existence. At that point, the human mind will say "Oh my God, I am free! I am free! I have always been free!".

And then it is realized, that all choices ever made, that all of existence, was due to Free Will. Not anyones Free Will, but pure Free Will.

 

Your sense of free will just points to the Causeless Cause, an inkling of True and Absolute Freedom, which is the ultimate nature and source of all of reality, all of existence.

Yes I agree. When I say you have a free will I am speaking about You as God/Consciousness not a relative ego.

You are the ultimate Agent -> God.

That Causeless Cause = Free Will.

I just find it a shitty pointer when people assume no free will when they need to realize they are the Ultimate Agent. And to become him you need to realize that you are Willing existence into existing.

So starting from the belief of "there is no free will" robs you at the very beginning of that power that you have to feel into to realize that.

Neverthess very nice post brother.

 

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Arthogaan

[Breakingthewall]

On 19/9/2023 at 5:58 PM, Arthogaan said:

That reality just happens and to put any "You/I" into that is a delusion. And I want to argue against that with the notion of Free Will. 

Yeah, seems that the reality is absolute intelligence, absolute will, so the reality is god. But can God choose to be something else?

[gettoefl]

5 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Yeah, seems that the reality is absolute intelligence, absolute will, so the reality is god. But can God choose to be something else?

the bible says:

Quote

5Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:

6Who, existing in the incarnation of God,

did not consider equality with God

something to be clung to

instead emptied Himself,

taking the form of a servant,

and took on human likeness.

8And being found in appearance as a man,

He humbled Himself

and became obedient to death—

even death on a cross.

9Therefore God has exalted Him to the highest place

and gave Him the name above every other name

so at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,

in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,

to the glory of God the Father.