The people invalidating the reality of men's loneliness are paid bots

[Princess Arabia]

3 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

@Princess Arabia The fact that you're calling this a word-game, proves that you have no idea of what you're talking about. 

Loneliness is a visceral experience. When you go out and get rejected by women, it viscerally feels like your life is in danger. You don't 'know' what it's like. And by 'know', I mean, in terms of experience. You don't know what it's like to have women avoid you everywhere and then, when you talk about your loneliness, to totally invalidate it. You have zero ideas about what it's like. 

If you actually give a shit, I'd suggest that you just open your mind to the possibility that you don't know what men's loneliness is. 

After we calmed down with the exchanges and you asked me to explain something and I did in a respectful manner and even if you feel I don't know what I'm talking about, there was still no need to respond in the way you just did. People can respectfully agree to disagree and I'm seeing how personal this conversation is getting. Loneliness has no gender and just because you may perceive it one way doesn't mean all men see it the same. Seems like you're projecting your loneliness unto me and categorizing it into a gender problem. Do you know how what its like for some women to feel lonely. Feeling lonely is a sensation that arises from nowhere it just arises and you get attached to it and now you're blaming the world. 

Maybe if you start to love yourself a little bit more you wouldn't see the need to have someone love you or to bring you out of your perceived loneliness. Chow, I refuse to continue to speak with someone who is continually speaking to me in this fashion. I understand triggers or initial reaction but keeping this manner of communication up when obviously you see where my intention is not to undermine your loneliness or to intentionally upset you speaks for itself.

[Princess Arabia]

Maybe if you start to embody love as a perfect manifestation of you, loneliness will disappear.

[mr_engineer]

18 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

After we calmed down with the exchanges and you asked me to explain something and I did in a respectful manner and even if you feel I don't know what I'm talking about, there was still no need to respond in the way you just did. People can respectfully agree to disagree and I'm seeing how personal this conversation is getting.

You can't have 'agree to disagree' and be solipsistic at the same time. Because, sooner or later, the disagreement between the two parts of your mind will escalate and blow up in your face. Disagreement on something this important is a serious problem and must be tackled. 

It's like saying 'I think that it's okay to starve your children if they behave badly' and you say 'No! That's barbaric as hell' and I say 'We can respectfully agree to disagree, don't personally attack my opinion and call it barbaric'. 

18 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

Loneliness has no gender and just because you may perceive it one way doesn't mean all men see it the same. Seems like you're projecting your loneliness unto me and categorizing it into a gender problem.

No, I don't know what it's like for women to feel lonely. That's why I LISTEN. What I've heard women associate 'loneliness' with, is a lack of protection/containment. The way a woman feels connected to a man is when he does good things for her. 

18 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

Feeling lonely is a sensation that arises from nowhere it just arises and you get attached to it and now you're blaming the world. 

No, it's not. It is a symptom of emotional-neglect/emotional-starvation. When you say that 'it just arises', this contradicts your spiel about cause and effect. 

And, for your kind information, I am not 'blaming the world for it', I have solved this problem for myself. The first step to solving it is to face it and see it as valid. The second step is to figure out which people are compatible with you and how to make things work with them, to practically validate your ideas. And the third step is to call bullshit on everyone who invalidates it. 

18 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

Maybe if you start to love yourself a little bit more you wouldn't see the need to have someone love you or to bring you out of your perceived loneliness.

Bullshit. Humans have emotional-needs from other humans. You don't get to sit there on your high-horse and tell me that I don't need other humans to love me. This is ridiculous. It's cruelty, in fact. 

18 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

Chow, I refuse to continue to speak with someone who is continually speaking to me in this fashion. I understand triggers or initial reaction but keeping this manner of communication up when obviously you see where my intention is not to undermine your loneliness or to intentionally upset you speaks for itself.

Maybe you are well-intentioned, but you are genuinely deluded about loneliness and how it works. It's not just a 'feeling-state'. 

Please do your research before preaching solutions. 

Edited September 17, 2023 by mr_engineer

[Princess Arabia]

2 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

You can't have 'agree to disagree' and be solipsistic at the same time. Because, sooner or later, the disagreement between the two parts of your mind will escalate and blow up in your face. Disagreement on something this important is a serious problem and must be tackled. 

It's like saying 'I think that it's okay to starve your children if they behave badly' and you say 'No! That's barbaric as hell' and I say 'We can respectfully agree to disagree, don't personally attack my opinion and call it barbaric'. 

No, I don't know what it's like for women to feel lonely. That's why I LISTEN. What I've heard women associate 'loneliness' with, is a lack of protection/containment. The way a woman feels connected to a man is when he does good things for her. 

No, it's not. It is a symptom of emotional-neglect/emotional-starvation. 

And, for your kind information, I am not 'blaming the world for it', I have solved this problem for myself. The first step to solving it is to face it and see it as valid. The second step is to figure out which people are compatible with you and how to make things work with them, to practically validate your ideas. And the third step is to call bullshit on everyone who invalidates it. 

Bullshit. Humans have emotional-needs from other humans. You don't get to sit there on your high-horse and tell me that I don't need other humans to love me. This is ridiculous. It's cruelty, in fact. 

Maybe you are well-intentioned, but you are genuinely deluded about loneliness and how it works. It's not just a 'feeling-state'. 

Please do your research before preaching solutions. 

My bad on the loneliness as a sensation, thats all. Edit. Your loneliness feeling cannot be permanently stopped by a another that's just temporary. You keep looking on the outside for validation when its all within you,

Edited September 17, 2023 by Princess Arabia

[mr_engineer]

10 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

My bad on the loneliness as a sensation, thats all. Edit. Your loneliness feeling cannot be permanently stopped by a another that's just temporary. You keep looking on the outside for validation when its all within you,

Just say that you don't give a shit. It's fine. There's nothing exceptionally bad about that, most of the world doesn't give a shit. 

Edited September 17, 2023 by mr_engineer

[Princess Arabia]

Stop projecting. If I didn't give a shit, i wouldn't be giving you my attention. You are just digging your own hole without realizing it. When I stop giving a shit is the day I die. There are plenty other sub-forums here I could be placing my attention so if you think you are that important for me to direct my energy towards you if I don't give a shit you have no idea how women are because the fact that they even acknowledge your presence means they give a shit. 

You don't seem to recognize that I'm aware that me coming at you like this is teaching me something whether you're learning or understanding or expanding your awareness or not. I'm aware of that so my beingness is never a waste of time because I know how to direct that back to myself. 

[Scholar]

 There are many dynamics at play, but you also have to realize that much of this is just internet toxicity:

We have a history of women being disadvantaged and have been correcting that trajectory over the past decades. Yet, because society has actually become more miserable for everyone, women do not feel like they are being advantaged. Everyone is suffering more today simply because of how toxic technology is for us, and so everyone tries to find a scapegoat for the misery in their life.

Identity politics is very popular due to the dynamics of the internet as well, and so it leads to narratives of patriarchy, victimhood and so forth. And because we live in an attention economy, everyone will be subconsciously striving to signal their victimhood. It leads to people competing for narratives.

 

In general, people are far less mature today than they have been a generation or two ago. They project their own personal problems onto the world, and the internet gives them an opportunity to create narratives and gather around those narratives. Femcels and incels function the same way in this regard. Victimhood and identity politics is just very appealling to the immature, modern mind.

 

 

It is easy to feel threatened by people who make such statements, but the reality is, they are simply immature. It's best not to take them too seriously. There are people like Dr. K, who are addressing men's issues directly in a healthy way and foster and environment of compassion for men's issues. It's better to focus on that rather than wasting time pondering the nature of femcels.

Just look at the redpill community and how immature these people are. Women are just as immature, so don't be surprised they fall for silly narratives. You are overestimating the intelligence of women significantly, they are just as dumb as men. And really, by dumb I mean immature.

 

 

You also have to consider: For every lonely man, there will be one miserable woman. While the woman might not suffer as much from loneliness due to being more competent socially, they will still fail at establishing a long term relationship. Women will casually date, but encounter men who are not interested in them long term. This also leads to them having a scewed picture of men. In general, the kind of hedonistic, casual dating culture disadvantages both the average man and woman, while most of the advantage goes to the top percentile of men. Contemporary culture really is a designed in many ways to make most people miserable.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Scholar

[SeaMonster]

It's not just Internet toxicity.

It's feminism and its drive to destroy all male-only spaces that could alleviate men's loneliness.  They call it misogynistic for not letting women in (it's a "boy's club") so of course the men cave and destroy male-only spaces and then -- shocker -- isolated men flock to the Andrew Tates of the world.

If you've been paying attention to the last several decades of American cultural and societal development, you will have noticed the trend.

At least RedPill (the real RedPill thinkers, not the professional wrestling characters like Tate) gets the diagnosis right: men need to reestablish men's only spaces and male bonding (and not ones led by some femcentric Dr. Phil type characters.)

Edited September 17, 2023 by SeaMonster

[something_else]

16 hours ago, mr_engineer said:

Now, about being a 'good person' - let's say, a woman is getting sexually assaulted in a public place, say, a train. What you're saying is the equivalent of 'you should ignore blatantly dumb and heinous stuff instead of escalating the conflict in that situation. If you want to fix the problem of rape, only focus on not being a rapist yourself, instead of directing all your attention towards the actual rapist committing the rape'. 

If you witness this this pro-male-loneliness type of behaviour in real life then do something about it, like you should if you witness a woman being assaulted on a train.

On the other hand if you witness it on the internet you should ignore it, because in the majority of cases it is designed to fuel your outrage in order garner attention and make money.

Quote

Do you believe that being pro-male-loneliness counts as man-hate? Because that's the point of debate here. What causes people to be pro-male-loneliness? And what do we do about these people? 

Of course it counts as man hate, I just don't think there are very many women in the real world who are actually pro-male-loneliness. And because of that, I don't think they are a significant part of the cause of the male loneliness epidemic.

Starting a crusade against these women saying bad things online might feel like you are doing something worthwhile, but it ultimately won't do anything to solve male loneliness because these women are likely unrelated to the root cause.

Edited September 18, 2023 by something_else

[something_else]

13 hours ago, Scholar said:

There are people like Dr. K, who are addressing men's issues directly in a healthy way and foster and environment of compassion for men's issues. It's better to focus on that rather than wasting time pondering the nature of femcels

Dr K is a great example of someone who cuts through the BS of internet culture and gets to the root issues of things, I really like him.

And your post was very well written 

[Bobby_2021]

As a man you should be comfortable being lonely.

"If you miserable when you are alone, you are in bad company."

Obviously I don't mean zero social interaction because people always like to take it to the extremes. 

[mr_engineer]

1 hour ago, something_else said:

Starting a crusade against these women saying bad things online might feel like you are doing something worthwhile, but it ultimately won't do anything to solve male loneliness because these women are likely unrelated to the root cause.

'Hunting down rapists might feel like you are doing something worthwhile to solve the problem of rape, but ultimately won't do anything to solve women's safety because these men are likely unrelated to the root-cause of women's safety-issues'. 

[Consept]

Topics like this always come down to are you blaming the world or are you taking responsibility for your situation? Internet culture is vast in that you can find enemies anywhere no matter who you are or how you identify, there will be people speaking about how they dont like women, how they dont like men, how they dont like black people, asian, muslim, whatever you identify as you will find someone who doesnt like you. This is partly why people spend so much time online because there are people questioning their very existence as their identity and there are also people validating there existence and defending them against these enemies. We watch this play out as if theyll be an ultimate winner or loser and we get happy when our side wins a debate or an exchange. 

In reality none of this matters, men might be lonely for a number of reasons but its up to each individual man to work why that is and what he can do to change. Whats funny is taking responsibility for yourself is supposed to be a masculine trait, but it seems in this instance that these lonely men want people to feel sorry for them so its a bit of a contradiction. Now maybe there could be elements where the current social landscape is not favourable to men, but shit happens, I agree up in England as a black male, ive never felt the social landscape was in my favour, so it happens to everyone, its just how you deal with it. Do you become better or do you become bitter? Lonely men need to work out what they can actually do within their own bubble, can they try and meet more people, can they go to clubs or take up hobbies that help them socialise around common interests? If youre sitting at home watching content about how no one cares that youre lonely obviously your not making any moves to remedy that situation. 

Also this criticism isnt limited to lonely men, this can be for women who blame men for their problems as well, essentially anyone that blames externally and feels that the solution is to bring down another group, you can do it i just dont see how it help your situation. 

 

[something_else]

15 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

'Hunting down rapists might feel like you are doing something worthwhile to solve the problem of rape, but ultimately won't do anything to solve women's safety because these men are likely unrelated to the root-cause of women's safety-issues'. 

I get the point you are trying to make, but rape and a few woman being pro-male-loneliness are not really comparable. The easiest way I can think of to show how they are not comparable is this:

• If you got rid of all rapists in the world, then rape would no longer happen or would be significantly reduced.
• If you got rid of the women online who are pro-male-loneliness, then the majority of men who were lonely before would still be lonely.

Rapists are the root cause of rape, however a few women saying men deserve to be lonely are not the root cause of male loneliness. Do you see how these are completely different issues with completely different causes? They are not comparable.

[mr_engineer]

9 minutes ago, something_else said:

I get the point you are trying to make, but rape and a few woman being pro-male-loneliness are not really comparable.

It's not 'a few women'. The average woman avoids men on the streets. You have to search long and hard for a woman who actually has some compassion. 

10 minutes ago, something_else said:

The easiest way I can think of to show how they are not comparable is this:

• If you got rid of all rapists in the world, then rape would no longer happen or would be significantly reduced.
• If you got rid of the women online who are pro-male-loneliness, then the majority of men who were lonely before would still be lonely.

If you got rid of the women who are pro-male-loneliness, men would feel emotionally safer to put themselves out there. Rejection would be a lot less hurtful and everything would work smoothly. 

We have to see who the real enemies are and we have to stop putting up with their shit. 

11 minutes ago, something_else said:

Rapists are the root cause of rape, however a few women saying men deserve to be lonely are not the root cause of male loneliness. Do you see how these are completely different issues with completely different causes? They are not comparable.

They are very comparable. Yes, the 'few' (it's not a few, actually, it's way too many to ignore) women saying that men deserve to be lonely are, in fact, the root-cause of male loneliness!! If we get rid of these people, then we have no problem. 

[mr_engineer]

@Consept What you do about this is you get rid of the people enabling the situation, you discredit them so that they shut up about 'how it's all men's fault' and 'how toxic men are' and 'blah blah blah'. 

You moderate them online for man-hate. You boycott them in real life. You make them feel consequences for propagating dangerous ideologies. 

We have to protect ourselves when these people gaslight and scapegoat us. It has to be clear that what they're doing is wrong and they have to face consequences for it. So, call it 'toxic femininity' and take action against it. 

Edited September 18, 2023 by mr_engineer

[something_else]

9 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

It's not 'a few women'. The average woman avoids men on the streets.

This is a safety thing. It is nothing to do with man hating. You avoid large groups of men on the street too because they pose a potential threat to your safety.

Quote

You have to search long and hard for a woman who actually has some compassion. 

Why do you think that it is OK for you to say hateful stuff like this about women, but you find it unacceptable for women to say hateful stuff about men?

16 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

If you got rid of the women who are pro-male-loneliness, men would feel emotionally safer to put themselves out there. Rejection would be a lot less hurtful and everything would work smoothly. 

This is very wishful thinking. The issue is not nearly this simple and there are many things that contribute far more to male loneliness than women online with extreme views.

[mr_engineer]

2 minutes ago, something_else said:

This is a safety thing. It is nothing to do with man hating. You avoid large groups of men on the street too because they pose a potential threat to your safety.

This is bullshit. Maybe if they didn't avoid good men and actually talked to them, they'd be safer. 

Either someone is a threat, or they're not. What the fuck is 'potential threat'?! Use your brain-cells to evaluate whether someone is a threat or not, you idiot! (That's how I think when a woman needlessly avoids me)

3 minutes ago, something_else said:

Why do you think that it is OK for you to say hateful stuff like this about women, but you find it unacceptable for women to say hateful stuff about men?

It's just my life-experience. And I don't go around saying that they deserve to be sexually assaulted, or that they deserve what's done to them. 

4 minutes ago, something_else said:

This is very wishful thinking. 

The first step to making it happen is to recognize that it's toxic femininity and to take a stand against it. Then, the next step is to figure out how to catch someone in the act of it and how to punish it. This will make the bullshitters avoid you and the ones who want to self-reflect and improve themselves stick around. 

You have to do this if you respect yourself and if you want to be respected in relationship. You have to do this ruthlessly. No mercy for women who scapegoat you and play victim-control dramas, even as a joke. They have to run from you. It's way better than them sticking around and actively ruining your mental-health. 

8 minutes ago, something_else said:

The issue is not nearly this simple and there are many things that contribute far more to male loneliness than women online with extreme views.

Let's deal with this first. 

[Consept]

38 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

@Consept What you do about this is you get rid of the people enabling the situation, you discredit them so that they shut up about 'how it's all men's fault' and 'how toxic men are' and 'blah blah blah'. 

You moderate them online for man-hate. You boycott them in real life. You make th feel consequences for propagating dangerous ideologies. 

We have to protect ourselves when these people gaslight and scapegoat us. It has to be clear that what they're doing is wrong and they have to face consequences for it. So, call it 'toxic femininity' and take action against it. 

If you are happy being lonely and people are putting you down for that then I can somewhat understand how maybe attacking back makes sense. 

But the key here is that men don't want to be lonely, it's not something they are proud about and are celebrating, in fact they hate the situation their in and some can even go to the extent of killing themselves because of it. 

So you can shut down as many people saying negative things as you like, you can ban them from discourse but men will still be lonely it doesn't solve the underlying problem. What does solve the underlying problem is having positive role models, is getting out there, pursuing things etc. What doesn't is constantly arguing online with feminists. 

Also as I said previously, for every group imaginable there are people speaking online who don't like that group. Should we shut down everyone that ever speaks against a group? Who cares just get out and make your life better, the online world is so different from the real world, you dont encounter probably 1% of the back and forth culture wars that exist online so in actual reality you are free to change your situation whenever you want, what keeps you not changing your situation is this belief in the boogeyman holding you back. Bullshit bro, man up 

 

[mr_engineer]

4 minutes ago, Consept said:

So you can shut down as many people saying negative things as you like, you can ban them from discourse but men will still be lonely it doesn't solve the underlying problem. What does solve the underlying problem is having positive role models, is getting out there, pursuing things etc. What doesn't is constantly arguing online with feminists. 

Also as I said previously, for every group imaginable there are people speaking online who don't like that group. Should we shut down everyone that ever speaks against a group? Who cares just get out and make your life better, the online world is so different from the real world, you dont encounter probably 1% of the back and forth culture wars that exist online so in actual reality you are free to change your situation whenever you want, what keeps you not changing your situation is this belief in the boogeyman holding you back. Bullshit bro, man up 

I have coined a term for this type of response. It's called 'benevolent emasculation'. That's what you're doing here. 

'MaN uP BrO, aLl oF yOuR ProBleMs aRe ImAgInArY BrO'

Edited September 18, 2023 by mr_engineer