Ralston Gives A Clear Answer To Metaphysical Love Question

[Loveeee]

1 minute ago, Water by the River said:

Matter is an arising/manifestation in Infinite Consciousness. It is not something external/out there indepdendly existing from Consciousness.

Yes, lets do agree to disagree.

Just out of curiosity, because of your questions/implications: Am I a nonplayer character in your perspective? yes or no? Like do I feel pain if you pinch me? Yes or no? Please no evasive answer, a clear yes or no. Thanks.

 

No ! Just like in dreams. There is no difference. None

[Yimpa]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Osaid I want to slap you so hard. But you are too dense for it to knock any sense into you.

8 hours ago, Osaid said:

That's not metaphysical anymore, that's physical.

Metaphysical sex 

I mean… Love! Let’s, uhh, let’s get back on topic 

Edited September 17, 2023 by Yimpa

[Water by the River]

Just now, Loveeee said:

No ! Just like in dreams. There is no difference. None

Ok, these were two separate questions. To which question refers your no?

Am I a nonplayer character in your perspective? Yes or no to question 1.

Do I feel pain if you pinch me? Yes or no to question 2.

Thank you.

[Breakingthewall]

2 minutes ago, Loveeee said:

No ! Just like in dreams. There is no difference. None

All of these are conceptual stories that have not the slightest relevance to the issue of spirituality. the same as solipsism and everything that people absorb from Leo's teachings. 

The only thing you're going to get out of that line of thinking is confusion and making crazy speeches to your friends.

[Yimpa]

1 minute ago, Water by the River said:

Do I feel pain if you pinch me? Yes or no to question 2.

Sometimes it’s better to just find out 

[Bufo Alvarius]

22 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

 

The outer part of their node in Indras Net (their body) is what is visible in the visual field. The "Interiority" or their Awareness/Consciousness is also directly realized. As yourself. But your True Self, totally empty Impersonal Awareness.

But the 'Interiority' would also have to include their mind stream, which you do not have access to, have you?

 

22 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

You are not aware of all perspectives manifesting right now. Do you know what you did exactly one year ago? I don't. So we admit forgetting in time.

The challenging part is only admitting that forgetting other perspectives in space is also possible.

Where do you derive this conclusion (other than from belief), that you have forgotten other perspectives in space, if you are not directly conscious of that? 

Edited September 17, 2023 by Bufo Alvarius

[Loveeee]

1 minute ago, Water by the River said:

Ok, these were two separate questions. To which question refers your no?

Am I a nonplayer character in your perspective? Yes or no to question 1.

Do I feel pain if you pinch me? Yes or no to question 2.

Thank you.

1 : What do you mean ?

2 : No 

[Loveeee]

7 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

All of these are conceptual stories that have not the slightest relevance to the issue of spirituality. the same as solipsism and everything that people absorb from Leo's teachings. 

The only thing you're going to get out of that line of thinking is confusion and making crazy speeches to your friends.

Not you too

[Yimpa]

7 hours ago, Osaid said:

Did do edibles afterwards and it was just an odd experience. I do kind of consider that as a psychedelic though. I don't know how normal people perceive edibles, but it was definitely NOT recreational, haha.

Great, maybe do that several more times; your ideas about enlightenment will be much smaller than you currently hold them to be.

[Water by the River]

25 minutes ago, Bufo Alvarius said:

But the 'Interiority' would also have to include their mind stream, which you do not have access to, have you?

 

No, directly realizing the essence of their being/Awareness in nondual states is enough. No need to read the content of minds or mindstreams. The content of the  mindstream is not the awareness itself. Structure/Essence vs. content.

23 minutes ago, Bufo Alvarius said:

Where do you derive this conclusion (other than from belief), that you have forgotten other perspectives in space, if you are not directly conscious of that? 

Like I wrote, that is part of the Nondual Realization, and can not be described with words. Please see my last post.

The picture is (maybe) just a help to understand (before the Nondual Realization) that others are really You.

I can not communicate more with words. It needs Awakened Nondual States, there is no way around it.

[Water by the River]

25 minutes ago, Loveeee said:

1 : What do you mean ?

2 : No 

You wrote:

3 hours ago, Loveeee said:

You do agree that people have no POV just like in your dreams right ? That there's no outside your POV not even in some parallel dimension or whatever, that space and time are imaginary 

1: Am I something like the "people that have no POV just like in your dreams, see above?" Yes or no? question (1)

2: I can assure you there is pain arising in my perspective if you pinch me.

Do others on the forum feel pain if you pinch them? Yes or no? question (2)

And if yes, why do only they feel pain and I dont't? question (3)

The questions are pretty clear. Please don't avoid or misinterpret them in any way. Just yes or no.

 

[Yimpa]

13 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

I can not communicate more with words.

It’s called a filibuster, keep going please.

[Water by the River]

6 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

It’s called a filibuster, keep going please.

you know, communicating the non-conceptual Truth. 

 

Edited September 17, 2023 by Water by the River

[Breakingthewall]

44 minutes ago, Loveeee said:

Not you too

That whole thing about: what you dream at night is the same as waking reality, or thinking that others don't have a POV, is the same as if you think, for example, that there are no other stars besides the sun. Well, you can think that if you want. What difference does it make? where does it take you? The issue goes another way, it is to separate yourself from the conceptual flow, not change its content. You have to understand what the conceptual flow is, and let go of it. thinking: others do not have pov, it is conceptual flow, exactly the same as thinking: others have pov. there is no difference

[Bufo Alvarius]

58 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

No, directly realizing the essence of their being/Awareness in nondual states is enough. No need to read the content of minds or mindstreams. The content of the  mindstream is not the awareness itself. Structure/Essence vs. content.

Like I wrote, that is part of the Nondual Realization, and can not be described with words. Please see my last post.

The picture is (maybe) just a help to understand (before the Nondual Realization) that others are really You.

I can not communicate more with words. It needs Awakened Nondual States, there is no way around it.

I agree with all what you say here, though I feel like you are still avoiding the elephant in the room.

Although it's true that by realizing your True Nature, your POV has been recontextualized as having been the Absolute all along, 'other' 5 sense experiences (other beings POV's) do not take place for you simultaneously. 

I hear you, that Infinite Consciousness can perceive an infinite array of lives  simultaneously (through non euclidian geometry/trans-logical mode of operating, like the picture tries to imply), like the eye of a fly can see many different frames at once (split-screen style). But as this is not directly accessible (sober state style), it can only be held as belief. Realizing the Absolute does not comes with realizing that other lives/5 sense experiences are taking place 'outside of space' for you. 

Btw, I hold a similar view, that these perspectives are all superimposed on each other, and accessible simultaneously by the one and only Infinite Consciousness, in a trans-logical/trans-geometrical way, incomprehensible from this 5 sense body/mind limitation (so we are on the same page here).

But still, I am aware that the part with 'multiple POVs taking place outside', is held as belief, as there is no way of 'breaking out of' being the Absolute as one single perspective at a time, and suddenly experiencing multiple perspectives at once (at least not in the sober state).

Edited September 17, 2023 by Bufo Alvarius

[Water by the River]

11 minutes ago, Bufo Alvarius said:

I agree with all what you say here, though I feel like you are still avoiding the elephant in the room.

Although it's true that by realizing your True Nature, your POV has been recontextualized as having been the Absolute all along, 'other' 5 sense experiences (other beings POV's) do not take place for you simultaneously. 

I hear you, that Infinite Consciousness can perceive an infinite array of lives  simultaneously (through non euclidian geometry/trans-logical mode of operating, like the picture tries to imply), like the eye of a fly can see many different frames at once (split-screen style). But as this is not directly accessible (sober state style), it can only be held as belief. Realizing the Absolute does not comes with realizing that other lives/5 sense experiences are taking place 'outside of space' for you. 

Btw, I hold a similar view, that these perspectives are all superimposed on each other, and accessible simultaneously by the one and only Infinite Consciousness, in a trans-logical/trans-geometrical way, incomprehensible from this 5 sense body/mind limitation (so we are on the same page here).

But still, I am aware that the part with 'multiple POVs taking place outside', is held as belief, as there is no way of 'breaking out of' being the Absolute as one single perspective at a time, and suddenly experiencing multiple perspectives at once (at least not in the sober state).

You don't need to experience the content of the mindstream of other perspectives to understand their essence/Awareness/Being. 

Only a fraction of Full Enlightenment descriptions contain a description like Leavitts Picture. And actually, there is no need for that. Structure/essence vs. content. Why it is that way can not really be communicated in language, but becomes clear once realization happens:

a) When the last remnants for separation/individuality/separate-self are realized as just arisings in the Infinite Boundless Opening of Absolute Reality/Awareness, and the essence of each and every arising is realized to be a manifestation of THAT, there can be nothing outside/beyond/other to that. It is limitless, boundless and infinite. All there is and can be. Absolute Reality itself.

b) The realization that there is nothing other than that Reality excludes the possiblity that there are other "Awarenesses" outside of that.

c) And for the validity that each being has the same Pure Impersonal Awareness as its essence: That is a direct realization of just looking at one "other" being/perspective in these enlightened states. It is you. But here, I can not convince you with words or concepts. Train towards these nondual infinite pure empty Awareness states for yourself, and see.

a) b) and c) is enough for Full Realization of Reality (and the essence of all possible beings).

But like I said, I never claimed I can proove that to anyone without that being having Realization/Enlightenment. And I can't transfer that via text. No one can. 

Yet the model of Leavitt is a model that makes much more intuitive sense than the standard solipsistic "I exist and all other beings are blank puppets without Awareness or Non-Player-Characters so to say". That view is hazardous for awakening, it ends in Nihilism and Narcissism. That is the only reason I argue against it. It is a bad pointer that leads into the claws of ego and self-contraction and not liberation.

[Osaid]

5 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

could you define enlightenment? Since you claim to be enlightened, could you describe as precisely as possible what exactly this is for you.

It is realizing exactly what your experience is all the time. It's realizing exactly what YOU are. It's not a function of philosophizing or thinking about things, it is an experiential shift which prevents you from misinterpreting your experience ever again. It is the desire to interpret your experience at all which is counter-intuitively causing you to misinterpret your experience. Your experience is not interpretation.

Relatively speaking, it is a psychological/physiological recontextualization that occurs in your experience, it just immediately happens. It's like if a blind person could see colors all of a sudden. It's exactly like that, it's experiential. There is no thinking about it or second-guessing it. It exists outside of mind. Existence proves itself. You can trigger this through self-inquiry (as I did), or meditation, or whatever other practices you want. In order to trigger it, a serious discrepancy needs to be realized. The same discrepancy which makes "you" fear thoughts. The same discrepancy which makes you say "I am stupid and worthless." The same discrepancy which keeps you confused about experience.

You are constantly being afflicted by scenarios in your mind. You are living two lives. The one that is experiencing what is experienced right now, and the one that is experiencing events that are not happening right now. 

It is a very simple thing and I truly believe anyone can achieve it. It's just that people don't care about their experience enough. If you just look at experience long enough, it will have no choice but to reveal itself.

I want to say there is a certain "measurable" aspect to it, for example, my energy levels improved afterwards and my sleep became different. It seems to be the case that attaching to thought forms seriously detriments your energy and your ability to sleep properly.

Nothing "changes" in experience, it is just seen with perfect clarity. When your experience is recontextualized, you just stay there forever. It's permanent. You don't experience time or boredom anymore. And then you just live the rest of your life like that.
 

6 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

For me, awakening, or enlightenment, or whatever we want to call it, is something that may not be the same for others. It is total openness to the now. The conceptual mind closes you to the now by creating an image of yourself and compartmentalizing reality in order to manipulate it. a very practical human function. Once you manage, after great effort and practice, to get out of there, you are open to reality.

This is on the right track. But it is the same for everyone. The journey for getting there and the methods for getting there can be totally different, but this should not be confused with enlightenment itself. It's a single realization which has been referred to across history.

This does not contradict the idea of reality having depth. Something being deep is simply not equal to Truth. It looks that way when you haven't figured out Truth, but you don't figure out Truth twice. The previous awakenings/breadcrumbs BEFORE Truth can be perceived as "depth", and it is depth, but it is misconceived to say that Truth deals in relative ideas of "depth." I am not saying that experiencing depth is wrong and I am not discounting any experiences of depth.

[Osaid]

1 hour ago, Yimpa said:

Great, maybe do that several more times; your ideas about enlightenment will be much smaller than you currently hold them to be.

Assumption.

Also, not an idea. I'm not thinking anything! Enlightenment is not something you think. I had ideas about enlightenment before, but of course I don't need them anymore. I don't need ideas about the color red when I'm looking at the color red.

You think I'm trying to maintain some idea or existential position, which is wrong. I'm not maintaining anything. I'm just describing what experience is. You can see it too if you just stare at it long enough.



 

[Bufo Alvarius]

7 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

a) When the last remnants for separation/individuality/separate-self are realized as just arisings in the Infinite Boundless Opening of Absolute Reality/Awareness, and the essence of each and every arising is realized to be a manifestation of THAT, there can be nothing outside/beyond/other to that. It is limitless, boundless and infinite. All there is and can be. Absolute Reality itself.

Agreed. There can be nothing 'outside', as this here/now is already infinite, boundless Awarness (groundless ground) expressing itself as this particular manifestation  (particular POV). Realizing this, it becomes cristal clear, that every other being, like all appearances taking place, are literally made out of the same essence, Your essence, as unbounded Awarness.

10 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

b) The realization that there is nothing other than that Reality excludes the possiblity that there are other "Awarenesses" outside of that.

Agreed. I never talked of any other Awarnesses being outside.

I'm talking about the manifestation part (another beings life experience), being held 'somewhere else' in Your Absolute Awarness. This is nothing that can be directly accessed/realized, and still you say because you can realize that all manifestation is made of the same essence, that this proves that you, as Absolute Awarness, are having these experiences of other beings 'outside' of this very experience, that's taking place here/now. 

The only thing realized here/now, is the ground of all existence, as unbounded Awareness. Indiras net, and there being experiences of other beings held, in some non-euclidian way in your very own Awarness, is a belief structure held in mind.

 

[Osaid]

5 hours ago, Loveeee said:

That there's no outside your POV not even in some parallel dimension or whatever, that space and time are imaginary 

Quote

By definition, if it's not part of your current experience, it's a belief

Truth and clarity does not exist out of your current POV right now either. Let's use the solipsism logic. Are you experiencing "infinite experiences" right now? Are you experiencing "degrees of consciousness" right now? They're beliefs, no?

Edited September 17, 2023 by Osaid