Ralston Gives A Clear Answer To Metaphysical Love Question

[Osaid]

14 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I want to slap you so hard. But you are too dense for it to knock any sense into you.

That's not metaphysical anymore, that's physical.

14 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You have learned nothing from me.

Aw, that's not true. I probably wouldn't have become enlightened if I never found you.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Osaid

[Leo Gura]

1 minute ago, Osaid said:

Aw, that's not true. I probably wouldn't have become enlightened if I never found you.

Your enlightenment is delusion.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Loveeee]

@Osaid Have you ever taken psychedelics ?

[Osaid]

17 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Your enlightenment is delusion.

Is that what the alien squirrel told you? Maybe they lied.

Delusion is a function of mind. It imagines ideas that contradict experience. There is no contradiction in reality. Reality does not lie. Direct consciousness does not lie. The color red does not lie or delude.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Osaid

[Osaid]

12 minutes ago, Loveeee said:

Have you ever taken psychedelics ?

Do edibles count? I took them a day after I became enlightened.

[gettoefl]

thank you for being here x @Osaid

[Osaid]

21 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

thank you for being here x @Osaid

❤️

Edited September 17, 2023 by Osaid

[Loveeee]

9 hours ago, Osaid said:

If anything is to be taken away:
 

If you ain't taking psychedelics you're fooling yourself 

[Osaid]

22 minutes ago, Loveeee said:

If you ain't taking psychedelics you're fooling yourself 

That's about the exact response I imagined.

Many people who take it and are very much fooled, you can even see it on this forum for yourself.

It's also just very clearly a big fat assumption.

You failed step one, making assumptions. You are delegating authority to psychedelics. Psychedelics are your new God, as is the case with Leo and most of this forum.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Osaid

[Water by the River]

12 hours ago, Osaid said:

This whole idea of higher and lower degrees of consciousness is anthropomorphism. OF COURSE Truth and reality doesn't hinge on achieving a HIGHER (dualism) degree of consciousness. And it seems that Leo has tried to reconcile this discrepancy by saying that "Truth" is different from "degrees of consciousness", so he is biting the bullet on the fact that it IS dualistic and separate from Truth, but it is not merely just a useful relative distinction he is making, it is creating a serious cognitive dissonance somewhere which is preventing him from considering enlightenment as a possibility. He is also definitely conflating "degrees of consciousness" with enlightenment/Truth. He needs to ask WHY it is necessary to switch to "higher" states forever to access what reality is. Just because an experience is morphing the metaphysics of your experience, that does not mean it is Truth or enlightenment.

This might seem paradoxical and impossible, but the ONLY existential deception that can occur in the entirety of existence is non-enlightenment. Either you can see what reality is, or you can't. There are only states where things are THOUGHT to be finite. All states are always infinite. All states have access to Truth. If you do not handle this "enlightenment" thing, your lack of clarity will bleed into most of the rest of your experiences.

Also the idea that Ralston is denying "metaphysical love" is a complete strawman.

Very true.

What Leo doesn't get - and will not get until he is truly fully enlightened (which will probably need some major humbling down/character change and meditation practice, and for starting that probably some really major suffering):

In Full Enlightenment:

• it is understood (or available all the time)  how the complete(-!-, each and any possible) illusion is constructed and what its essence is (oneself, Suchness). What the essence of each and any illusion-mechanism is.
• He thinks the enlightened beings "tell" themselves the story that they are enlightened, or have thought arisings like that.. and are still deluded doing that.
  • Which of course is a joke for an enlightened being, because all of that blabla is seen as object-thoughts floating in ones Infinite True Self, besides which nothing can exist. Exactly that is the pre-requisite for Full Enlightenment. That all concepts, I-thoughts, I-feeling float in ones True Self, and is not who one really is. Not as idea, but as actual deep realization & reality, that holds in daily life and sobre states.
    • INCLUDING that realization/understanding and its elaboration (if the thought-elaboration of that realization/understanding) happens.
  • It comes with actual nondual states in which the boundlessness/infinite nature of Reality, and its character as mere appearance of any possible object/arising/thought/feeling/world is vividly clear as arisings/manifestations in ones True Infinite Self.
  • Which is ones own TRUE BEING, which is realized by first BEING it (impersonal,nondual, infinite, mere appearance), and then asking/Koan what is "beyond" that/what is that/what is aware of that/what is constant in all of that.

But Leo can't understand that, because he doesn't have these states sobre with impersonal empty awareness, but only with psychedelics where remnants of the separate-self are still active as lenses/filters/centers/identities. These prevent Full Enlightenment.

• On the classic path of meditation one only gets to these nondual states by already severely emptying out the separate-self/identity towards being largely impersonal/empty.
• And the rest gets kicked and emptied out in these nondual infinite awakened states.
• That doesn't happen in psychedelic nondual states to the same high degree (magnitudes lower), and that is why the true (nondual and so on) Awakenings later get hijacked by ego. One gets the nondual states for free without paying the empty/impersonal/ego-transcendence price. And that backfires...

He truly believes that a full enlightened being has falling for the delusion of identifying/thinking of himself as enlightened. Which indeed would be a delusion, and that often happens after some smaller enlightenments. Thats the true part to the story (nobody is smart enough to be wrong all the time).

• With Full Enlightenment, it is absolutely clear that this move is one more idiotic delusion-mechanism ("the enlightened person") on top, and even that has to go. Together with each and all mistaken identity/I-thought/I-feeling arisings.

And THAT understanding/realization is final. It brings bliss, peace and freedom from fear. It shows ones true immortality, and the essence of each and any (alien-, n+1) realm. And that essence is Ones True Self.

• There is no other, in any and each realm, never possibly could be. That is all manifestation/relative stuff/mechanisms/realms.
• There also was no one really confused and ignorant, just the illusion-arising of that happening.
• There CAN'T be any other higher Awakenings/Realizations than that. Only more Awakenings/Insights into more understanding of manifestation mechanisms of various realms, or these (alien for example) realms themselves. Of which there is (the bummer) an Infinity of them. Which God is exploring. Forever and ever and ever.
  • And Leo has hijacked Gods job of doing that (as a mere mortal), has become addicted to it to ease his suffering, and is now suffering for ever more of that wonderful blissful Awakenings (they are beautiful, but still passing) in a grasping way. And selling this as path to salvation. Bravo, well done! Instead of chasing Porsches, Yachts and Villas, we chase AWAKENED STATES and understandings into Alien Realms, N+1. I would have no problem with him doing that for himself until wising up.
    • But he is promoting and selling this to partly young & vulnerable beings which risk crashing their life on a relative level (education/professional career/friends/relationships) by doing unhealthy transdence (grasp for the higher + dislike/disassociate/neglect from the lower levels of being = opposite of healthy development which is defined as transcend and include and integrate, and not transcend and disassociate/dislike/hate (the relative, including humanity) and no integration - anybody seen this with Leo?!). That is the direct path to sick development, instead of healthy development/growth. 

So, then some little predictions from my side:

• The enlightened ones will never change their position on these points of Full Enlightenment. Because a) self-evident and b) final. And apparently a few ones are already haunting this lovely forum.
• Leo will probably not accept that until he himself is fully enlightened, or being severly humbled by suffering.
  • Since he is not even aspiring or keeping the possibility of Full Enlightenment in  an open-minded way (which is the cardinal sin in spirituality), he will go chasing higher Awakenings until being severely humbled up, probably by severe suffering & crash burn. Or he will just continue in grasping, seeking and suffering ways for ever higher Awakenings, and act the "lovely" way he does as ONLY AWAKE BEING on the planet. And just act more or less narcissistic and inflate his Ego as God. Like in ONLY ONE AWAKE ON THE PLANET, instead of the less insane (but also illusory) MOST AWAKE of everyone he knows of.
• He needs to belittle Full Enlightenment to keep his perspective of the superiority of ever more AWAKENINGS n+1 going. Which is a fulminant cul-de-sac preventing further growth towards real impersonal (non-narcicisstic, non-ego) Full Enlightenment.

And its not the first time that the psychedelic-only path has been tried. It never worked. Here is Ken Wilbers comment on it: "The downside comes with people that only use psychedelics or drugs and I found that over the years they just become mean. That if somehow it just kind of closes them down. It's like you keep doing it and you keep doing it you keep doing it doesn't quite cause the transformation it can cause a peak experience but generally not a transformative experience". Sounds familiar?

 

 

Water by the .... River! 

Edited September 17, 2023 by Water by the River

[Loveeee]

7 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

Very true.

What Leo doesn't get - and will not get until he is truly fully enlightened (which will probably need some major humbling down/character change and meditation practice, and for starting that probably some really major suffering):

In Full Enlightenment:

• it is understood (or available all the time)  how the complete(-!-, each and any possible) illusion is constructed and what its essence is (oneself, Suchness). What the essence of each and any illusion-mechanism is.
• He thinks the enlightened beings "tell" themselves the story that they are enlightened, or have thought arisings like that.. and are still deluded doing that.
  • Which of course is a joke for an enlightened being, because all of that blabla is seen as object-thoughts floating in ones Infinite True Self, besides which nothing can exist. Exactly that is the pre-requisite for Full Enlightenment. That all concepts, I-thoughts, I-feeling float in ones True Self, and is not who one really is. Not as idea, but as actual deep realization & reality, that holds in daily life and sobre states.
    • INCLUDING that realization/understanding and its elaboration (if the thought-elaboration of that realization/understanding) happens.
  • It comes with actual nondual states in which the boundlessness/infinite nature of Reality, and its character as mere appearance of any possible object/arising/thought/feeling/world is vividly clear as arisings/manifestations in ones True Infinite Self.
  • Which is ones own TRUE BEING, which is realized by first BEING it (nondual, infinite, mere appearance), and then asking/Koan what is beyond that/what is aware of that/what is constant in all of that.

But Leo can't understand that, because he doesn't have these states sobre with impersonal empty awareness, but only with psychedelics where remnants of the separate-self are still active as lenses/filters/centers/identities. These prevent Full Enlightenment.

• On the classic path of meditation one only gets to these nondual states by already severely emptying out the separate-self/identity towards being largely impersonal/empty.
• And the rest gets kicked and emptied out in these nondual infinite awakened states.
• That doesn't happen in psychedelic nondual states to the same high degree (magnitudes lower), and that is why the true (nondual and so on) Awakenings later get hijacked by ego. One gets the nondual states for free without paying the empty/impersonal/ego-transcendence price. And that backfires...

He truly believes that a full enlightened being has falling for the delusion of identifying/thinking of himself as enlightened. Which indeed would be a delusion, and that often happens after some smaller enlightenments. Thats the true part to the story (nobody is smart enough to be wrong all the time).

• With Full Enlightenment, it is absolutely clear that this move is one more idiotic delusion-mechanism ("the enlightened person") on top, and even that has to go. Together with each and all mistaken identity/I-thought/I-feeling arising.

And THAT understanding/realization is final. It brings bliss, peace and freedom from fear. It shows ones true immortality, and the essence of each and any (alien-, n+1) realm. And that essence is Ones True Self.

• There is no other, in any and each realm, never possibly could be. That is all manifestation/relative stuff/mechanisms/realms.
• There also was no one really confused and ignorant, just the illusion-arising of that happening.
• There CAN'T be any other higher Awakenings/Realizations than that. Only more Awakenings/Insights into more understanding of manifestation mechanisms of various realms, or these (alien for example) realms themselves. Of which there is (the bummer) an Infinity of them. Which God is exploring. Forever and ever and ever.
  • And Leo has hijacked Gods job of doing that (as a mere mortal), has become addicted to it to ease his suffering, and is now suffering for ever more of that wonderful blissful Awakenings (they are beautiful, but still passing) in a grasping way. And selling this as path to salvation. Bravo, well done! Instead of chasing Porsches, Yachts and Villas, we chase AWAKENED STATES and understandings into Alien Realms, N+1. I would have no problem with him doing that for himself until wising up.
    • But he is promoting and selling this to partly young & vulnerable beings which risk crashing their life on a relative level (education/professional career/friends/relationships) by doing unhealthy transdence (grasp for the higher + dislike/disassociate/neglect from the lower levels of being = opposite of healthy development which is defined as transcend and include and integrate, and not transcend and disassociate/dislike/hate (the relative, including humanity) and no integration - anybody seen this with Leo?!). That is the direct path to sick development, instead of healthy development/growth. 

So, then some little predictions from my side:

• The enlightened ones will never change their position on these points of Full Enlightenment. Because a) self-evident and b) final. And apparently a few ones are already haunting this lovely forum.
• Leo will probably not accept that until he himself is fully enlightened, or being severly humbled by suffering.
  • Since he is not even aspiring or keeping the possibility of Full Enlightenment in  an open-minded way (which is the cardinal sin in spirituality), he will go chasing higher Awakenings until being severely humbled up, probably by severe suffering & crash burn. Or he will just continue in grasping, seeking and suffering ways for ever higher Awakenings, and act the "lovely" way he does as ONLY AWAKE BEING on the planet. And just act more or less narcissistic and inflate his Ego as God. Like in ONLY ONE AWAKE ON THE PLANET, instead of the less insane (but also illusory) MOST AWAKE of everyone he knows of.
• He needs to belittle Full Enlightenment to keep his perspective of the superiority of ever more AWAKENINGS n+1 going. Which is a fulminant cul-de-sac preventing further growth towards real impersonal (non-narcicisstic, non-ego) Full Enlightenment.

And its not the first time that the psychedelic-only path has been tried. It never worked. Here is Ken Wilbers comment on it: "The downside comes with people that only use psychedelics or drugs and I found that over the years they just become mean. That if somehow it just kind of closes them down. It's like you keep doing it and you keep doing it you keep doing it doesn't quite cause the transformation it can cause a peak experience but generally not a transformative experience". Sounds familiar?

 

 

Water by the .... River! 

What about you, ever took psychedelics ?

[Osaid]

6 minutes ago, Loveeee said:

What about you, ever took psychedelics ?

You know Ralston took psychedelics, right? Did he take them wrong? Did he not do them enough? 100 more? 101?

Edited September 17, 2023 by Osaid

[Osaid]

16 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

And apparently a few ones are already haunting this lovely forum.

Haha, I like that term, haunting. I will haunt the "degrees of truth" out of everyone. ?

Cool breakdown.

[Arthogaan]

@Osaid

This is not an attack or anything I am just genuinely curious - why did you not explore psychedelics more? For me it is just so obvious that if I am interested in spirituality and exploring reality then if there are chemicals that change perception so much then it is really natural and obvious impulse for me to explore them to the fullest? Why you don't see it that way, why are you not curious?

[Water by the River]

3 minutes ago, Loveeee said:

What about you, ever took psychedelics ?

Guess 

 

[Osaid]

7 minutes ago, Arthogaan said:

why did you not explore psychedelics more? For me it is just so obvious that if I am interested in spirituality and exploring reality then if there are chemicals that change perception so much then it is really natural and obvious impulse for me to explore them to the fullest? Why you don't see it that way, why are you not curious?

I was curious and I was going to try them. I just pushed it off, because, I don't know, I like to procrastinate. I felt like I wasn't ready. I might still do it if I get access to it.

Did do edibles afterwards and it was just an odd experience. I do kind of consider that as a psychedelic though. I don't know how normal people perceive edibles, but it was definitely NOT recreational, haha.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Osaid

[Loveeee]

10 minutes ago, Osaid said:

You know Ralston took psychedelics, right? Did he take them wrong? Did he not do them enough? 100 more? 101?

Psychs are necessary but not sufficient 

 

3 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

Guess 

 

My guess is no

[Water by the River]

10 minutes ago, Arthogaan said:

@Osaid

This is not an attack or anything I am just genuinely curious - why did you not explore psychedelics more? For me it is just so obvious that if I am interested in spirituality and exploring reality then if there are chemicals that change perception so much then it is really natural and obvious impulse for me to explore them to the fullest? Why you don't see it that way, why are you not curious?

I wasn't specifically asked, but allow me this comment: BOTH, meditation and psychedelics, is probably the fastest path for most.

But there are dangers, and an obvious danger ist

1. downplaying the meditation-part, or
2. getting ego=God delusion via psychedelics.

Psychedelics give the nondual awakened states for free (and a lot of other stuff), without much emptyting out the separate-self/ego-mechanism towards the Impersonal/Pure Awareness side. And Reality/True Self  is Pure Impersonal Awareness.

With meditation, before one gets to nondual awake states, the separate-self is already emptied out ~95%+. One already is very(!) proficient cutting each and any thought/feeling arising of the separate self/ego, and any other concept/thought on top of that also. And the awakened states still get hijacked by the remaining 5% ("enlightened person"), but there is much less potential for ego=God inflation because there is less of it left in the first place than on the mainly psychedelic path.

 

 

[Water by the River]

5 minutes ago, Loveeee said:

My guess is no

Due to the legal status of these things in this country here, and my professional licences, I have to leave you with the "guess" and no clear answer on this public forum here.

But a nice, interesting and colourful shirt, isn't it?  

 

[Arthogaan]

2 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

I wasn't specifically asked, but allow me this comment: BOTH, meditation and psychedelics, is probably the fastest path for most.

Of course. I would probably add kriya yoga to that. 

 

12 minutes ago, Osaid said:

I was curious and I was going to try them. I just pushed it off, because, I don't know, I like to procrastinate. I felt like I wasn't ready. I might still do it if I get access to it.

Did do edibles afterwards and it was just an odd experience. I do kind of consider that as a psychedelic though. I don't know how normal people perceive edibles, but it was definitely NOT recreational, haha.

For me weed is really difficult and usually does not show me that much about reality, more about my self and some remains of trauma and repressed emotions.

Brother it would be really valuable for you and for the community on the forum for you to try the classic psychedelics and comment on them. Cheers.