Ralston Gives A Clear Answer To Metaphysical Love Question

[Bufo Alvarius]

13 minutes ago, Osaid said:

Enlightenment is just knowing what you are, that's it. You either get it or you don't. And there is no further truths that come after that, because as mentioned before, that creates duality and separates truth from other experiences.

@Osaid I think there is no dissonance here, Enlightenment is total clarity about what is already the case.

What I'm advocating though, is that there is still greater clarity to realize, beyond the awakening into your nature as Nothingness and to keep an open mind, that this could be the case.

That final 'recontextualization' of the present moment will reveal itself as pure divinity, which is was Nothingness has been all along. 

[Osaid]

16 minutes ago, Bufo Alvarius said:

What I'm advocating though, is that there is still greater clarity to realize, beyond the awakening into your nature as Nothingness and to keep an open mind, that this could be the case.

Enlightenment is not something to do with mind. It's like I'm experiencing the color red and you're saying "keep an open mind that you might actually be experiencing something that isn't red and instead it is actually greater than red." It's just not something that having an open mind would affect at all because it has nothing to do with mind, it doesn't exist in that medium.

16 minutes ago, Bufo Alvarius said:

That final 'recontextualization'

That's enlightenment. The final recontextualization is just becoming conscious of what you always are, which is what being enlightened is. There won't be another, because there aren't two truths.

Edited September 13, 2023 by Osaid

[Water by the River]

2 hours ago, Bufo Alvarius said:

@Water by the River @OsaidIt feels like you two have begun teaching from the place of realization of Nothingness. What you miss imo, is that the awakening to Nothingness is still followed by the awakening to Pure Divinity.

If I may quote from the book “The Incredible Reality of You” by LuciaLorn. This is the last chapter of the book, the previous chapter talked extensively about the realization of Nothingness.

--------------------------------------------------------------

“- The ultimate miracle -

If perception opens to a pivotal point of clarity, another shift in perspective occurs. Nothingness awakens to the true supreme source of infinite power within itself that is the primal motivational force behind Consciousness and all apparent existence. That power source has been disguised in the appearance of existence all along. The sun of divine power that was rising on the horizon of infinity now shines brightly as the pure power source of Supreme Divinity in all its divine radiance and splendor.

The ultimate force behind Consciousness (and its divine cosmic Intelligence that appears as the body,  world and universe) is revealed, and that indescribable supreme light source of pure Divine Radiance becomes the dominant perspective from that moment on.

Beyond existence and nonexistence, hidden deep within the Nothingness, that Supreme Divinity is the initial intention and essential spur to Be. It is the primal cause of everything. It is the original motivating force that drives creation, evolution, destruction, annihilation and recreation. Pure Divinity is the supreme source and cause of all cause and effect, it is eternal and absolute, without beginning or end, it always was and always will be.

That supreme power source has been in the thoughts and on the lips of everyone that has ever lived, if only on the level of faith, belief, disbelief or condemnation. It has been theorized in philosophies and sciences and has been universally acknowledged and sought after in all religions and spiritual traditions. It has been called by many names: God, Universal Mother, Divine Mother, that which cannot be uttered, the Supreme Divinity, the Supreme Lord, and so on.

Although generally conceptualized by the mind as being a Divine entity, Pure Divinity is an unlimited field of pure divine power beyond all concepts and entities – the power behind Consciousness itself to create, or even conceive of, entities, forms or phenomena. There are no words in any language capable of describing that supreme Divinity. Rare are those who have glimpsed that pure radiant light, more powerful and brilliant than that of millions of suns.

There are countless aspects and qualities of divine intelligence responsible for creating and maintaining the appearance of creation. Each one is so exquisitely majestic and divine, that even a glimpse of one of those qualities in its pure divine flow can be overwhelming. Yet, all those qualities combined cannot compare to the ineffable radiance of the eternal, boundless reality of the pure Supreme Divinity that is the ultimate power source, hidden deep within the Nothingness.

This pure divine power Source is the generator that sparks the luminescence in the eternal light of unbounded pure Consciousness. It is the initial incentive in the hollowness of the seed of pure Nothingness causing it to sprout into Consciousness and Intelligence, and flower into the appearance of creation.

Life is not the miracle. The real miracle is the incredible Supreme Divine Power that gives life, and appears as, all life. It is the cause, the essence and the whole of the sense of Being, the mind and the body, the world and universe, and all existence. It is hidden deep within the alive Presence around you right now.

It is the unseen supreme causal energy force of pure Divine Light that appears as your body and everything all around you.

It is the incredible Power of Illusion.

- The Supreme Power of Illusion –

This Supreme Power of Illusion has been disguised as Consciousness, Intelligence, the universe, everyone and everything, all along. Once this perspective has been revealed, there is no going back. It becomes clear that there was never an individual person evolving towards enlightenment. You have been unbounded pure Consciousness unfolding and awakening to the total divine reality of itself through individual and world appearance all along.

Consciousness is Consciousness due to the subtle impulse inherent in pure Nothingness to know and to Be. That stimulus is pure Supreme Divinity, the ultimate power source and force creating Consciousness and the universal Intelligence that appears as all existence in the first place. It is the true cause and the supreme source of the source.

There is no distinction between Nothingness and its Supreme divine power, just as there is no distinction between God and the will of God. It is one thing. Yet, without that primal pure intention of Divine Will, there would be no Consciousness and no cosmic Intelligence to create and uphold the appearance of creation, and even Nothingness could be not be. The Infinite Silence of pure Nothingness is due to the Infinite Dynamism of pure Divinity.

There is no difference between pure Force and pure Silence, yet, remaining as One, pure Force reigns Supreme.

The wholeness of non-existence, and all manifest and unmanifest existence, pure Divinity is an unlimited field of the infinite power of Nothingness. Beyond all ideas of He, She or It, the power of pure Divinity is distinctly feminine in character. It is that supreme force that has given birth to everything, including the ability of Nothingness to know itself.”

That quote from Lucia Lorn is spot on. I like the text and her statements.

It may seem that Nothingness gets emphasized, but only to avoid any projection of remaining separate-self elements on the Absolute. Which is indeed rampant here. And does cause and will cause more suffering than necessary.

For the Absolute, it has a precise definition: Take away all relative manifestation, manifestation of any kind, no arisings at all, and the Absolute is still perfectly "there", like it always is, always was, and ever will be. Timeless, eternal, infinite, the only "thing/non-thing" there is and ever could be, no "other besides" it, One without a second. That is what is fundamental. More fundamental than the relative manifestation, which can be gone. The relative manifestations/arisings arise in in the Absolute as it (nondual, same essence). And if that realization is always available for a being, that is the summum bonum.

With Nothingness I don't mean something limited to the fully empty states like Nirvikalpa (Wilber causal states/stages for example, deep sleep, and so on) and so on, but realizing that Infinite Always Here Truth while the world & visual field is there & active and maintaining it while doing so, or True Nondual states. Of course, the Absolute is also present in fully empty states (causal states) by definition (see below). With True Nondual States I don't mean Unity states with separate-self elements still going (these are also already nondual, but with separate-self-elements still going on). But fully empty nondual states, having passed the causal/Nothingness Gate, no separate-self left.

Concerning the ring and the gold example: What sense does it make calling/equating the ring (relative manifestation) the "Absolute", which is defined as everpresent and unchanging and always true? The Ring is not always the case! When the Absolute is supposed to be Truth (defined as always the case), it has to be unchanging and always here, never not here. And IT indeed is.... Calling the relative Absolute is technically wrong, because it is not unchanging and always the case. The relative is contained within the Absolute and is of the same essence, like the ring and gold example.

Sure that Absolute (or Nothingness or Being or whatever one wants to call it) has potential for awareness/sentience if something arises again, and the potential to manifest that. And infinite intelligence and love, and so on. But first and foremost the Absolute is that which it always is, timeless. And then comes the properties of that which it manifests, and the ways of doing so. When describing gold, we can say it has the potential to form a ring. But first and foremost, it is gold. 

Most beings already confuse themself with the ring, and can benefit from pointing to the gold. More than being pointed towards how that the ring is made/manifested, which intelligence made it, about other bigger rings, the love for the ring and how other rings are manifested/imagined, n+1. But the gold: That gold which is always eternally the case right here right now, never not been. Which is by the way the textbook definition for Ultimate Truth: Always true or the case. The Relative is not always the case, and therefor not ultimately true. Truth = that which is the case.

But to make sure that one really becomes that on a deep identity level shift with no separate-self-elements (ring-elements) still left projecting onto properties of the Absolute (gold), Nothingness is a near perfect term. That is why the Nothingness/empty/impersonal/silent aspect gets emphasized in all meditation traditions, because if that is not realized (or become), one is not what one truly is, but still ignorant with separate-self-arisings blocking the full realization, which makes it impossible to "touch" it and rest in it stable in daily life.

So used with that meaning, Nothingness emphasizes these aspects of the Absolute that one needs to fully realize it. Or let the separate-self finally and truly die. That is the price to pay. Which only seems like a price before it happens.

If that is refused and belittled, or declared outright non-existant, suffering will go on.

Selling Water by the River

Edited September 13, 2023 by Water by the River

[Water by the River]

4 hours ago, Razard86 said:

When you become Enlightened you realize Sex is Imaginary and you can literally have sex in your imagination. You won't need a girlfriend or a wife.....crazy huh?

If the imaginative capacity goes so far into the schizophrenic that it reaches the description of sentence 1 and 2, one would probably have to admit that the question at the end should be considered to be answered towards the positive.

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by Water by the River

[Bufo Alvarius]

2 hours ago, Osaid said:

Enlightenment is not something to do with mind. It's like I'm experiencing the color red and you're saying "keep an open mind that you might actually be experiencing something that isn't red and instead it is actually greater than red." It's just not something that having an open mind would affect at all because it has nothing to do with mind, it doesn't exist in that medium.

'Open mind' was used as a figure of speech, not to point out that it has anything to do with the mind, but to point towards the possibility that realizing Truth/gaining clarity into your True Nature comes as a process of unfoldment, and although once there has been a certain consciousness established about what is what, there are still aspects that have not been realized when for example pointing out the difference between realizing Nothingness and Pure Divinity. 

@Osaid @Water by the River I am aware that teachings like Peters go into saying that Truth is already Truth and you either get it (get clarity on) or you don't. But this is just one style of teaching, an artistic choice that makes it seem like gaining clarity is a binary thing (you either become conscious or you don't). On the other hand, you have teachings that emphasize on levels and shifts and walk you through each level of realization until culminating in enlightenment. 

I am aware that this culmination is nothing that is not the case already now, but nevertheless the whole shebang is usually not revealed in one fell swoop. Hence I was pointing towards the possibility that was has been described as 'Pure Divinity' might still hold the potential to be realized by both of you. A deeper dive into Pure Divinity can be found here.

To rephrase the original intention of my post, another quote by LuciaLorn:

"Awakening to being the unbounded pure Awareness in which all experience happens is only the beginning, not the end. It's the basic platform upon which Consciousness can begin to unfold the finer, more comprehensive realities of itself. Consciousness shifts to broader and broader perspectives and perceptions of itself as it opens to the greater expanse of its infinite wholeness. It reveals finer, more divine dimensions of itself, which have been right in front of you, in the appearance of the body, surroundings, nature, world and universe all along.

From the perspective of Awareness itself, there are no levels. There is only one homogeneous wholeness. The idea of going through different levels or states, to become what you already are, is a joke to Consciousness. It is just another concept and barrier to enlightenment. It is only after Awakening to being pure Awareness itself, that you can begin to appreciate what is really meant by higher levels and states of consciousness.

The term "Higher States of Consciousness" refers to the increasingly more expanded perspectives that Consciousness experiences of itself after Awakening to being unbounded pure Awareness. It is not the individual mind that awakens to being pure Awareness, nor is it the individual mind that experiences higher states of Consciousness. It is pure Awareness itself, your real Self, that shifts to broader perspectives of itself and reveals finer perceptions of its own divine fullness. It is not possible to understand, or even imagine, what it is like in these States until they are experienced. The mind cannot comprehend that which is beyond its experience and which words are incapable of expressing.

After Awakening, there are unmistakable shifts to even broader perspectives of Consciousness of itself that cannot be missed. Once clearly experienced and firmly established, there is no falling back from them. In each state, Consciousness experiences a wider frame of reference and greater clarity of itself from a completely different perspective. Knowledge, perception and reality are experienced different in each state, even though its basis is always the same one field of unbounded pure Consciousness.

Writing about these states of Consciousness is not meant to add more knowledge to your storehouse of concepts. You should know that there are indeed higher states of Consciousness that are simply clearer states of experience of reality as it is. They are revealed in the natural course of the unfoldment of Consciousness to the natural state of full enlightenment."

 

[Water by the River]

34 minutes ago, Bufo Alvarius said:

After Awakening, there are unmistakable shifts to even broader perspectives of Consciousness of itself that cannot be missed. Once clearly experienced and firmly established, there is no falling back from them. In each state, Consciousness experiences a wider frame of reference and greater clarity of itself from a completely different perspective. Knowledge, perception and reality are experienced different in each state, even though its basis is always the same one field of unbounded pure Consciousness.

Writing about these states of Consciousness is not meant to add more knowledge to your storehouse of concepts. You should know that there are indeed higher states of Consciousness that are simply clearer states of experience of reality as it is. They are revealed in the natural course of the unfoldment of Consciousness to the natural state of full enlightenment."

Well, I understand and agree to all what LuciaLorn writes.

The are Awakenings/Enlightenments towards the Shift to Full Enlightenment, and fully realizing what one is. Before the full shift, these insights are still interpreted through the lenses of a separate-self/agent/lense/filter, however subtle that may be.

Most traditions clearly have this order of Awakenings/Enlightenments (realizing facets of the Absolute), which then culminates in Full Enlightenment, or understanding the elephant fully by being it. The rest is then just relative stuff to explore (or not).

Ralston is clearly writing from Full Enlightenment. That decisive deep shift or Realization is indeed not gradual as the Awakenings/Enlightenments before that. And it is unmistaken.

 

 

 

[Bufo Alvarius]

19 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

The are Awakenings/Enlightenments towards the Shift to Full Enlightenment, and fully realizing what one is. Before the full shift, these insights are still interpreted through the lenses of a separate-self/agent/lense/filter, however subtle that may be.

@Water by the River How would you know, you are not mistaken Nothingness for Pure Divinity? 

I understand that your measuring stick for full enlightenment is the complete falling away of seperate-self arisings (however sublte). This is already the case upon realizing Nothingness. But still, a few teachers manage to go a step further and realize Pure Divinity.

To quote David Buckland on Pure Divinity:

"It is not easy to describe as it is without form. It is prior to all creation and any distinctions. But it is with a power and potency beyond conception. We discover even infinite consciousness that contains all of creation is but a pale shadow of divinity."

In another blog article he writes:

"Before awakening, we engage in self development. This is a person getting to know its strengths and limitations and moving towards self-actualization. Most people are oblivious to their own cosmic nature.

After awakening and throughout the development of the stages of Self Realization (Cosmic Consciousness) and Unity, the focus shifts to infinite and eternal consciousness. This is discovering our deeper nature and its dynamics. It is consciousness getting to know itself in essence, then in forms and phenomena.

And yet, just as the person obscured our deeper nature, the screen of consciousness acts as a covering for what is beyond it. This is just like a movie screen hides the speakers and equipment behind it.

When we go beyond consciousness and the subtle duality of Being, we have the chance to recognize the origins of consciousness. We can see how alertness and liveliness stir each other into Consciousness, then Consciousness becomes aware of itself and expression begins. Consciousness becomes its own observer and screen.

Beyond consciousness is Nothingness. Nothingness knows itself. We might say  Nothingness is conscious but is not self-interacting, just self-knowing.

And yet, what is the origin of those core aspects of consciousness? What motivates any experience at all? Nothingness doesn’t answer this.

When we settle deeper into Pure Divinity, the source of the source, we come to know the origins of all. And yet Pure Divinity is uncreated. It is sufficient to itself.

This latter development is primarily a development of clarity and refinement. We have gone beyond consciousness so cannot know Divinity through that. As with Nothingness, the pure divinity of Pure Divinity can be known only by itself.

The first stage of Pure Divinity requires it be recognized in the physiology. We have to be it to know it. This may be experienced subjectively as Divinity moving in to the cosmic body (which would already be recognized as one with the local body, hence experienced “here”). Of course, Divinity was always here but because of the nature of Shakti to flow, the opening can be experienced as flowing in. This is essentially the alertness value of Divinity coming on-line here.

We also recognize the flows of consciousness are actually the flows of the Shakti’s of the Divine.

In time, there is a dissolution of the sense of a distinct cosmic body. It and the physical form merge into a body of divinity. All become aspects of one totality.

In  Pure Divinity, Stage 2, I outlined a second stage of this – a deeper embodiment of Divinity in a descent, and a further shift from the Nothingness perspective. This is in the nature of the profoundly networked Shakti and a taste of the self-knowing of Divinity.

Stage 3 is like another awakening but vastly more subtle. The shift can be like a quiet click. Then it kicks in. This time, it is liveliness coming on-line, the power of Divinity.

This is the power that gives rise to all experiences in all time in all beings in all universes simultaneously. Its potency cannot be over-estimated. When it kicks in, it has a rather large value of intensity that takes longer to adjust to than prior openings. As before, the alertness amps way up in our normal daily experience. The awakeness in deep sleep becomes greater than that of the prior waking state which was already vastly more awake than earlier.

I’m not sure how much of this is standard and how much related to the process here. Others are having a similar process but language is tricky in such profound abstraction. There is always variations in emphasis and what is noticed.”

[Razard86]

6 hours ago, Osaid said:

No difference between "single" and "infinite" and "one."

No, you are multiplying infinity into multiple infinities. Experience is always one and infinite. "Infinite ways" is accessed through memory and imagination, as is all duality.

Truth won't change in that state either. You are really trying hard to multiply truth. But it really is just one thing.

More intelligence and understanding as you say might be the case. But that is not truth or enlightenment. Because you are claiming to experience more of it. You're not gonna experience "more" truth, because that is duality and separates truth from other states.

Not true. You exist without difference right now, and you are typing, you just believe that you aren't existing as that, hence unenlightenment.

The unenlightened person believes that they are not infinite and thus they will act as if they are not infinite, even though they still are. This is how beliefs operate in the human experience. And those beliefs occur within infinity. There is never any actual lack of infinity or disconnect from infinity, that is always experientially just a belief that can be unimagined. Beliefs can occur inside of infinity. There is ultimately no discrepancy. The point of this sentiment "you are always enlightened" is simply to highlight that what is being pointed to is present in your experience right now, whether you believe or don't believe that it is.

Difference is always accessed through imagination of course, but it's important to understand that only humans are capable of non-enlightenment because of their strong imaginative intelligence. So there is a relative aspect to this "journey", and it might seem like the end result is related to some relative process, but the end result truly has nothing to do with any of that. Humans have a certain capability in the form of imagination which is able to create the perceptual illusion of being disconnected from infinity. Pretty much all other animals cannot experience this, because they do not have the capability to accomplish such a thing. A worm is not going to imagine itself as finite, for example. 


 

1. You deny the relative, and thus you don't even know what you are talking about. There isn't one truth. If there was one truth, there wouldn't be Infinity. That's the point. You don't even realize that you are playing word games and are talking in circles.

2. In ONE SENSE Infinity is indistinguishable and in another sense it isn't. Why? Because if it wasn't indistinguishable YOU couldn't imagine it was. There is no difference between REAL and IMAGINARY as thus...duality is JUST AS REAL AS IMAGINARY. The only reason we focus on the Absolute here, is because those who want to awaken are only aware of the Relative and NOT the Absolute.

This is how I know you are lost in conception because you place limits on Reality and do not realize it. You are denying that the Absolute is Absolutely Relative which means you DENY Infinity, and you DENY TRUTH. The irony? Is right now if it wasn't relative....you wouldn't be TYPING!!!!

Here is a kicker for you.... you could call GOD A DREAM!!!! Because whatever God is BEING....is always the SAME THING. So there is NO DIFFERENCE between Dreaming and NOT DREAMING because GOD is a MIND!!!! God is PURE IMAGINATION which is the same as PURE POTENTIALITY.

You see you keep trying to stick to a model of a perspective but here is the real kicker....all perspectives are TRUE. In fact....that's the argument you just presented...and you don't even realize it. Because if you deny relativity then you make all perspectives TRUE. By doing this you also deny integration and will confuse the hell out of anyone on the path. Why? Because right now you arguing a perspective, and then denying that your perspective exists all at the same time. See the problem? You are trying to deny Relativity and as a result you are now stuck in Paradox. 

The PARADOX can only be resolved when you realize it is BOTH ABSOLUTE and RELATIVE. To deny relativity is to deny creation, to deny infinity and to deny GOD? Because reality being unreal or real is merely an EXPRESSION of GOD. If it wasn't so...GOD literally could not put itself to sleep. It would be impossible...and thus God would be finite. LOL but you don't even know that...because you haven't had the awakening.

The secret to the path is to accept all. If it isn't relative....WHY ARE YOU ON HERE TYPING.....that would be stupid lol. Notice even when you are aware it's a dream...you can still fool yourself. If a guy started coming at you with a knife...you wouldn't be telling the cops it's wasn't real!!! LOL!!!! 

So miss me with these platitudes. It is BOTH!!! Otherwise trickery would be impossible.

Edited September 13, 2023 by Razard86

[Princess Arabia]

5 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

1. You deny the relative, and thus you don't even know what you are talking about. There isn't one truth. If there was one truth, there wouldn't be Infinity. That's the point. You don't even realize that you are playing word games and are talking in circles.

2. In ONE SENSE Infinity is indistinguishable and in another sense it isn't. Why? Because if it wasn't indistinguishable YOU couldn't imagine it was. There is no difference between REAL and IMAGINARY as thus...duality is JUST AS REAL AS IMAGINARY. The only reason we focus on the Absolute here, is because those who want to awaken are only aware of the Relative and NOT the Absolute.

This is how I know you are lost in conception because you place limits on Reality and do not realize it. You are denying that the Absolute is Absolutely Relative which means you DENY Infinity, and you DENY TRUTH. The irony? Is right now if it wasn't relative....you wouldn't be TYPING!!!!

Here is a kicker for you.... you could call GOD A DREAM!!!! Because whatever God is BEING....is always the SAME THING. So there is NO DIFFERENCE between Dreaming and NOT DREAMING because GOD is a MIND!!!! God is PURE IMAGINATION which is the same as PURE POTENTIALITY.

You see you keep trying to stick to a model of a perspective but here is the real kicker....all perspectives are TRUE. In fact....that's the argument you just presented...and you don't even realize it. Because if you deny relativity then you make all perspectives TRUE. By doing this you also deny integration and will confuse the hell out of anyone on the path. Why? Because right now you arguing a perspective, and then denying that your perspective exists all at the same time. See the problem? You are trying to deny Relativity and as a result you are now stuck in Paradox. 

The PARADOX can only be resolved when you realize it is BOTH ABSOLUTE and RELATIVE. To deny relativity is to deny creation, to deny infinity and to deny GOD? Because reality being unreal or real is merely an EXPRESSION of GOD. If it wasn't so...GOD literally could not put itself to sleep. It would be impossible...and thus God would be finite. LOL but you don't even know that...because you haven't had the awakening.

I have a question for you but ill only ask if you respond to this because I really would like an answer and sometimes you don't respond to some inquiries. So say shoot and ill ask it right away.

[Razard86]

3 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

I have a question for you but ill only ask if you respond to this because I really would like an answer and sometimes you don't respond to some inquiries. So say shoot and ill ask it right away.

Shoot

[Water by the River]

1 hour ago, Bufo Alvarius said:

How would you know, you are not mistaken Nothingness for Pure Divinity? 

I understand that your measuring stick for full enlightenment is the complete falling away of seperate-self arisings (however sublte). This is already the case upon realizing Nothingness. But still, a few teachers manage to go a step further and realize Pure Divinity.

All good and valid points you write and ask. Finally, you have to get there to fully answer that for you. The Absolute is unmistaken.

1 hour ago, Bufo Alvarius said:

I understand that your measuring stick for full enlightenment is the complete falling away of seperate-self arisings (however sublte). This is already the case upon realizing Nothingness

Depends on the definition of Nothingness. Most cases claiming No-Self, or Emptiness, or anything like that is not the full Nothingness, but "something/somebody (quite subtle)" perceiving some "emptiness" or "void". (That something goes from identifying with emptiness instead of the persona to being in nondual Unity with the field and the separate-self having become so empty that it is just a very subtle feeling and nothing else). That is not the true nondual realization or True No-Self.

That of course sparks a nightmare of not matching definition.

A good pointer to the Absolute is Nothingness in the meaning of not describable in any way (no opposite), which is the same as truly infinite. Some call it Infinity, but that can also be something else.

Even before having these realizations in place: There is some logic to the intuition that when there is literally nothing there as separate-anything (no center, lense, feeling of a separate anyting), or in other words impersonal empty and in nondual Unity with the everything arising, then from this boundless nondual Unity the Absolute can be intuited or realized what is beyond that. Because how can one understand what the nondual bubble of the visual field is (or what is beyond it) if it is not already nondual?

That beyond is NOT consciousness (of something), because there is nothing there to be consciousness of. Consciousness can arise in IT/Absolute/You when something manifests or moves. And that can be very subtle. It has the capacity for awareness, but only if something arises. That is what he means with the following:

1 hour ago, Bufo Alvarius said:

We discover even infinite consciousness that contains all of creation is but a pale shadow of divinity."

He uses here the term Infinite Consciousness as the container of manifestation.

It is a question of how to use the terms.

I have read Bucklands book, and his term/realization Parabrahman fits nicely to the Absolute. Before that (or a stage below) in his system comes Brahman, or the totality of manifestation, Ken Wilbers upmost lower causal. He wants to avoid that people imagine a dry nothing as the Absolute when using the term Nothingness. Nothingness correctly used as pointer implies this Pure Divinity aspect of Infinite Potential for manifestation.

1 hour ago, Bufo Alvarius said:

And yet, what is the origin of those core aspects of consciousness? What motivates any experience at all? Nothingness doesn’t answer this.

When we settle deeper into Pure Divinity, the source of the source, we come to know the origins of all. And yet Pure Divinity is uncreated. It is sufficient to itself.

This latter development is primarily a development of clarity and refinement. We have gone beyond consciousness so cannot know Divinity through that. As with Nothingness, the pure divinity of Pure Divinity can be known only by itself.

And here he says that Nothingness is not IT. On which I agree, because Nothingness is only a pointer, and used in this way it isn't IT. The Absolute is, as Nagarjuna has already defined it millenia ago in the Madhyamaka totally undefinable, without opposite, always present. So technically, it is not even as Nothingness. And Buckland equates the Absolute with Pure Divinity (another pointer signifier, pointing to a referent that is a realization that a being can have).

That is why the pointer Nothingness should be balanced with the pointer Infinite Potential if there is a risk of mistaking it for nothing/emptiness/void. Yet, they are all only pointers (including pure divinity) to the referent.

Yes, pretty confusing. Because the terms (like Nothingness, Absolute, Pure Divinity, and so on) are not defined, and used differently by different authors.

What all agree on:

• For the Absolute to be realized the separate-self-arisings need to go/transcended/cut off/ died to
• on the way there a Nondual Infinite Unity develops including all that is arising (Enlightenments, Awakenings along the path)
• And from this boundless nondual awakened state the Absolute beyond it can be realized (Full Enlightenment, knowing what one truly is, sudden shift or insight what Reality or oneself truly is. Final, and the rest is relative stuff that can be explored).
• The Absolute is unchanging, uncreated, timeless, infinite and so on, and contains all the rest of relative manifestation which is in nondual unity with it, and of the same essence.

So from there on, it is all relative or manifested stuff. That becomes clear with that realization.

And with that realization, one can go live ones life in peace, reorient the invidual body-mind top to bottom to confirm to that realization in daily life, and if one wants go exploring the endless wonders of manifestation or its manifestation mechanisms, or help others, or go grow a beautiful garden. In other words, live pretty happily ever after.

Those who have not seen the end of the path as that beyond all changing states need an endless further ladder of higher awakenings/states/experiences/understandings/whatever (and of course proclaiming these as superior to finally getting rid of all the ignorance covering the Absolute/ones True Being) to ease the suffering and grasping. Which in my humble opinion describes the show going on here quite well.

 

 

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by Water by the River

[Princess Arabia]

Just now, Razard86 said:

Shoot

How come it can seem so complicated to understand Awakening/Enlightenment/Spirituality. Often times even the professionals/Scientists/Philosophers/Doctors and those kinds disagree on things and they are intelligent, well-studied, articulate etc, I see even you intellectuals on the forum disagreeing with what Awakening/Enlightenment is, but still in an intelligent/intellectual manner. My question is what happens to the regular folk on the street. Like even homeless, unintelligent, people who didnt go to school, don't have access to internet, or just downright poor. I think you get the drift, Are they able to reach Enlightenment without intellectually understanding it. Can they be aware of their true nature if they aren't exposed to these Truths or teachings. To make this short, it just seems like if certain things aren't available to you, you will be lost in the maize without understanding your true nature.

[vibv]

19 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

How come it can seem so complicated to understand Awakening/Enlightenment/Spirituality. Often times even the professionals/Scientists/Philosophers/Doctors and those kinds disagree on things and they are intelligent, well-studied, articulate etc, I see even you intellectuals on the forum disagreeing with what Awakening/Enlightenment is, but still in an intelligent/intellectual manner. My question is what happens to the regular folk on the street. Like even homeless, unintelligent, people who didnt go to school, don't have access to internet, or just downright poor. I think you get the drift, Are they able to reach Enlightenment without intellectually understanding it. Can they be aware of their true nature if they aren't exposed to these Truths or teachings. To make this short, it just seems like if certain things aren't available to you, you will be lost in the maize without understanding your true nature.

You ARE your true nature, completely independent of understanding it or not or anything, really.

"Enlightenment" is nothing more than becoming aware of that.

[Bufo Alvarius]

27 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

And with that realization, one can go live ones life in peace, reorient the invidual body-mind top to bottom to confirm to that realization in daily life, and if one wants go exploring the endless wonders of manifestation or its manifestation mechanisms, or help others, or go grow a beautiful garden. In other words, live pretty happily ever after.

 

@Water by the River So where do you see the difference between full enlightenment how you view it and Rainbow Body enlightenment? 

How come some masters realize the rainbow body (full dissolution into light) before the physical body dying, while other manifest it upon death where they only leave hair and nails, while other masters don't manifest it at all despite being fully enlightened?

[Leo Gura]

There is no such thing as enlightenment!

Enlightenment is just another one of your self-deceptions.

Edited September 13, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Princess Arabia]

42 minutes ago, vibv said:

You ARE your true nature, completely independent of understanding it or not or anything, really.

"Enlightenment" is nothing more than becoming aware of that.

I understand that. My question is, is what you guys talk about, and I'm talking about the intellectual aspect of Awakening and the back and forth needed for true Awakening because the less than average guy on the street who probably won't or can't comprehend these kinds of talk is he immune to recognize his true nature only because he wasn't exposed to these teachings and understandings. If it wasn't for the internet I probably wouldn't have recognized my true nature and if it wasn't for my abilities to understand intellectually (not counting self-deception and ignorance to specific aspects), I would have still been in the dark. Seems like the same thing as ignorance of the law doesn't make you immune to getting punished. Not saying we're being punished for not Awakening but if you're not exposed you'll have no clue. 

Not saying this is the case but it seems Awakening is biased towards a selected few who have access to such knowledge. Or it seems like all this talk is just mental masturbation and there is no such thing as Awakening/Enlightenment because learning to literally walk, eat, talk and do normal human activities needed to navigate the body only comes with physical growth and is normal for babies to learn to do and doesn't need special teachings to do because its innate. I hope you're understanding my question. @Razard86still didn't even respond to my inquiry.

Edited September 13, 2023 by Princess Arabia

[OBEler]

@Leo Gura can you contact Ralston and show him how much we discuss him recently here on this forum? And if he would be available for a discussion between you and him to clear things out? That would be in his interest too I think 

[Princess Arabia]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

There is no such thing as enlightenment!

Enlightenment is just another one of your self-deceptions.

This is what I'm starting to recognize from my own intuition.

[Water by the River]

4 minutes ago, Bufo Alvarius said:

@Water by the River So where do you see the difference between full enlightenment how you view it and Rainbow Body enlightenment? 

How come some masters realize the rainbow body (full dissolution into light) before the physical body dying, while other manifest it upon death where they only leave hair and nails, while other masters don't manifest it at all despite being fully enlightened?

I have no proof concerning the Rainbow Body, yet I personally believe its legit in some cases.

Essentially that happens from longterm Dzogchen Trekchö/Togyal-practice, which is essentially stabilizing enlightened/awakened states when the visual field has become nondual, infinite and mere groundless appearance (Tibetans call that clear light. Very similiar to Bucklands or Haari Aaltos descriptions of divine refined perception) on a sustained basis. Basically Full Enlightenment, and living from that state in a stabilized way in daily life for a long time (Ken Wilber peak-plateau-permanent). 

 

[Hello from Russia]

Just now, OBEler said:

@Leo Gura can you contact Ralston and show him how much we discuss him recently here on this forum? And if he would be available for a discussion between you and him to clear things out? That would be in his interest too I think 

Damn, if he'd come to this forum it'd be such a gift

Though he might probably be too old for forums...