A debate about vaccination, by two rappers.

[Danioover9000]

   Just because it's interesting to see how they argue they're points being rappers, not coming from streamers or the Sam Harris/Jordan Peterson types. From my side, I'm more pro vax and less anti vax with many conditions if I am to swing a bit more anti vax. I'll always say that it's your spiritual, moral and civic duty as a citizen to take the vaccine, and follow covid policy then because there are some who have far weaker immune systems than you, the children and the elderly with compromised immune systems. To me it just seems that if I'm sick with Covid, and I do a 50/50 with the policies, and I happen to spread this to a person with weak immune system and they died, then I'm guilty of being an accomplice to helping the virus spread. Also, I hate germs. Please be civil, open minded when discussing your take on this video, don't intentionally get this thread derailed thanks:

   Just interesting takes and insights, based on developmental factors.

[Juan]

Locked

[Sucuk Ekmek]

11 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

   I'll always say that it's your spiritual, moral and civic duty as a citizen to take the vaccine, and follow covid policy 

What's up with this new religion...

Where is individuality? 

As Benjamin Franklin once said: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." 

[Danioover9000]

@Sucuk Ekmek

2 hours ago, Sucuk Ekmek said:

What's up with this new religion...

Where is individuality? 

As Benjamin Franklin once said: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." 

   It's simple ethics, moral and civic duty. If WW1 and WW2 generations most answered the conscriptions with little complaint, then most would follow Covid policy such as wearing a mask, 2 meter distancing, washing hands more frequently, and finally, taking the vaccine. If the old generation took anti vaxxer's logic, then Nazi Germany would win against most countries as they're too busy playing anarcho fantasies of overthrowing the government.

   Don't get me started on mrna vaccine giving myocarditis. Myocarditis effects from vaccine is a fraction of the myocarditis that Covid-19 can give against those with no inoculation, with is 5-10 times worse, and weaker immune systems, either too young or too old, or genetic disorders that weaken that person's immunity, plus other symptoms like pneumonia like coughing and deep aches in the bone, as well as lose of smell and taste and a very high infection rate. I don't need the government to spell out it's my civic and spiritual duty to look after the weak by proxy, as I don't like helping the virus by spreading it. Simple, common sense commonplace decency of my fellow citizens of my country and the world. Don't see why Libertarians and anarchos can't mentally grasp such a simple standard.

   Also, Benjamin Franklin would be pushing for this, despite whatever views he had for liberty which I think you're misunderstanding, he'll exercise his liberty of protecting his fellow Americans by taking the vaccine and following policy. Otherwise you can just break the social contract right then and there, and leave elsewhere, because what's the point of a society without basic decency to others? Also, he caught an eye infection, and I'm very sure he'll be seeking a doctor for that or a vaccine against eye infections if only he had these in his time.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Danioover9000

[Danioover9000]

@Juan

12 hours ago, Juan said:

Locked

   Stop stalking me, and leave me alone crep.

[Juan]

35 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

   Stop stalking me, and leave me alone crep.

@Danioover9000 I’m not stalking you. This is just a low quality post imo.

[Sucuk Ekmek]

2 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Sucuk Ekmek

   It's simple ethics, moral and civic duty. If WW1 and WW2 generations most answered the conscriptions with little complaint, then most would follow Covid policy such as wearing a mask, 2 meter distancing, washing hands more frequently, and finally, taking the vaccine. If the old generation took anti vaxxer's logic, then Nazi Germany would win against most countries as they're too busy playing anarcho fantasies of overthrowing the government.

  

It's my civic duty to warn you guys about upcoming technocratic measures. This is not about pro or anti "x" logic. 

 

[Danioover9000]

@Sucuk Ekmek @Juan  Don't derail the thread please.

[Sucuk Ekmek]

13 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Sucuk Ekmek @Juan  Don't derail the thread please.

Okay, sorry !

[Christoph Werner]

The vaccine doesnt stop the spread.  They never even tested that. The vaccines have more to do with business than health. Neither the pharmaceutical companies nor the government care the slightest about your health. Most countries have a multitude of far worse health crisies than covid, but close to nothing is being done. Only when there is big opportunity for monetization and policies that give governments more control  they start to "care" about your health. 

[Danioover9000]

@Christoph Werner

2 hours ago, Christoph Werner said:

The vaccine doesnt stop the spread.  They never even tested that. The vaccines have more to do with business than health. Neither the pharmaceutical companies nor the government care the slightest about your health. Most countries have a multitude of far worse health crisies than covid, but close to nothing is being done. Only when there is big opportunity for monetization and policies that give governments more control  they start to "care" about your health. 

   The main issue isn't the stop or slowing down of the Covid 19 virus, the issue is preparing the immune system of a quite novel virus invading your immune system, which the Covid is novel albeit some evolution relation of the SARs virus that specializes in effecting the lungs. Covid 19's origins came from China's Wuhan province, from the official story of the wet markets containing bats. Low possibility that Covid is a bio weapon, that yes China still does testing and still contains bio weapon chemicals. Regardless of the specific origins or how Covid was so lethal and has high spread rate. Despite the CNN's China reporter giving an early warning to America, at that time most of the world underestimated Covid as just another typical flu, as seen by how Italy's lack of preparation leads to it's healthcare being overloaded with many people, mostly old age to some children, filling the hospital to maximum capacity and above. I suggest you watch the documentary about China and Italy and how Covid effected them.

   Despite any other health conditions, accidents or injuries or illness unrelated to Covid, it's high spread rate, and severe negative health effects that still lingers in some that survived Covid via herd immunity or being infected without vaccination preparation, makes it the number one most evil and viscous virus to date, and went from epidemic to pandemic, dragging the world to another world war. The world really was caught off guard, and the abysmal coordination globally to this pandemic virus is insanity. Thanks to the vaccination, the majority that are vaccinated have recovered faster and suffered far less than those with the dogma of anti vax and the false Joe Rogan, anti establishment anti mainstream types have faired, which is little compared to those vaccinated. It's design is not to prevent or stop transmission, it's to prepare the immune system and train it to respond to Covid and fight the virus quicker, thereby slowing the virus down now your immune system knows the signs and can immediately produce anti bodies and white blood cells in response.

   Put aside your feelings for big pharma, big pharma and that western medicine is here to stay. Treating it like the devil is foolish and will result in more hells and suffering for more people. Anti vax is stupid, and has probably killed more and made many more miserable than necessary when they simple could have taken the vaccine and followed Covid policy.

[Christoph Werner]

The big majority of covid deaths were either very sick people or very old people. That's why USA for example had a lot of deaths because the average health of americans is terrible and US has already lots of health crisies. To healthy people the virus is non threatening.  I had it, was quite sick for one day and then completely healthy again the next day.

I am not anti vax. Whoever feels to take the covid vax from the pharma businesses that they came up with in one year,  sure go ahead. But don't go on a moral high ground and look down upon those who chose not to.

On 07/09/2023 at 1:44 AM, Danioover9000 said:

To me it just seems that if I'm sick with Covid, and I do a 50/50 with the policies, and I happen to spread this to a person with weak immune system and they died, then I'm guilty of being an accomplice to helping the virus spread

 

On 08/09/2023 at 0:44 AM, Danioover9000 said:

It's design is not to prevent or stop transmission

which is it now?

 

You see when we talk about covid the truth is just that really nobody has any idea. Rationally speaking it's an incredibly complicated topic. When you think the vaccine is safe, that's a belief.  When you make all these judgements on which data are they based? How do you know your sources are reliable?  You're just parroting expert opinions that you gathered up. How do you know which expert is right? 

Life is your imagination. So why the need of a vaccine for safety? Just imagine you are safe and you will be.  Now this is obviously advanced stuff.  Not for the Population.  But we are on the actualized forum, no?

[Danioover9000]

@Christoph Werner

1 hour ago, Christoph Werner said:

The big majority of covid deaths were either very sick people or very old people. That's why USA for example had a lot of deaths because the average health of americans is terrible and US has already lots of health crisies. To healthy people the virus is non threatening.  I had it, was quite sick for one day and then completely healthy again the next day.

I am not anti vax. Whoever feels to take the covid vax from the pharma businesses that they came up with in one year,  sure go ahead. But don't go on a moral high ground and look down upon those who chose not to.

 

which is it now?

 

You see when we talk about covid the truth is just that really nobody has any idea. Rationally speaking it's an incredibly complicated topic. When you think the vaccine is safe, that's a belief.  When you make all these judgements on which data are they based? How do you know your sources are reliable?  You're just parroting expert opinions that you gathered up. How do you know which expert is right? 

Life is your imagination. So why the need of a vaccine for safety? Just imagine you are safe and you will be.  Now this is obviously advanced stuff.  Not for the Population.  But we are on the actualized forum, no?

   The big majority of deaths from Covid-19 were either very sick or very old people, proving my point that the majority needs to be vaccinated and inoculate themselves from the virus, because again your own words is that the majority of deaths are from the very sick and very old, plus some children and some people with  weak immune systems either born with genetic disorders, or autoimmune diseases, or some with respiratory complications or cardiovascular complications taken into account the myocarditis this virus gives you, which is why it's our civic duty to protect these minorities of cases that have a very high chance of a severe reaction against the Covid-19 virus. The USA's average health and other illnesses are irrelevant, the main problem is specifically about if we should have immediately follow Covid-19 policies and get vaccinated? We should have done sooner and quicker.

   No, the Covid-19 virus is also severe against healthy young adults as this is a novel severe virus that effects the lungs and then the heart and other systems in the body, and because of the novelty the virus can cause vast amounts of stress. In fact the first Chinese doctor that got the Covid-19 virus, very fit looking and young doctor, died within a week of getting the Covid in the Wuhan province area.

   Sorry, but I can't take your word that you 'had Covid-19 and survived it' without any vaccination beforehand, give me evidence you were sick with the Covid-19 virus or I'm assuming it's a typical cold.

   Sorry, your question is stupid, like what do you mean which is it? how does this statement:

'To me it just seems that if I'm sick with Covid, and I do a 50/50 with the policies, and I happen to spread this to a person with weak immune system and they died, then I'm guilty of being an accomplice to helping the virus spread' Which I'm making because I feel responsible for spreading this virus if I don't follow policies and take the vaccination, Contradicts this other statement:

'It's design is not to prevent or stop transmission', when this statement is to clarify the purpose of a vaccine, which is to strengthen the immune system's response by helping it develop anti bodies of a particular virus to help it recognize and mobilize the white blood cells to attack those viruese, therefore it's not designed to stop spread, but to slow down the spread and help the vaccinated person recover faster? Like WTF are you straw manning me for???

   The difference between me and you, is that I don't weaponize my epistemology to justify anti vax talking points as I've briefly addressed some of their points before, but you weaponize this skepticism and doubt to then discredit those big pharma types from doing their job, which is the saving of lives as much as possible not just gaining profits and the bottom line, which in mass scale is so many billions of lives that it seems to us they're not doing so, but they are! To discredit them still to this day is crazy and insane, it's just common sense commonplace human decency to take the vaccine and follow policy. Myocarditis in a vaccine does not justify not taking the vaccine because MYOCARDITIS IS IN THE REAL VIRUS ALREADY!!

   Stop justifying the cold blooded and empathy less anti vax people for increasing the suffering of any other people with weak immune systems, the sick and the children and the old, that depends on the majority that is vaccinated to benefit from herd immunity.  

Edited September 9, 2023 by Danioover9000

[newbee]

On 9-9-2023 at 8:19 PM, Danioover9000 said:

The difference between me and you, is that I don't weaponize my epistemology to justify anti vax talking points as I've briefly addressed some of their points before, but you weaponize this skepticism and doubt to then discredit those big pharma types from doing their job, which is the saving of lives as much as possible not just gaining profits and the bottom line, which in mass scale is so many billions of lives that it seems to us they're not doing so, but they are! To discredit them still to this day is crazy and insane, it's just common sense commonplace human decency to take the vaccine and follow policy.

   

Lol, what kind of hypocritical statement is that!?    You’re the one constantly looking down on ‘anti-vaxxers’ calling them stupid, cold-blooded and irresponsible, unlike yourself of course. But not everyone is fooled by your covert narcissistic morally superior ego creeping through at every opportunity, you know. 

And Big Pharma's priority is to save lives ?!! looooooool To believe that is what's crazy and insane or utterly naive.

 

On 9-9-2023 at 8:19 PM, Danioover9000 said:

@Christoph Werner

..., very fit looking and young doctor, died within a week of getting the Covid in the Wuhan province area.

 

So where is your empathy for all the young and very fit-looking doctors (and other citizens) who died within a week from taking the Covid vaccine or experienced other atrocities such as becoming paralyzed for life?  Apparently, they don’t deserve your empathy. Bit biased much?

These people often took the vaccine, despite their gut instinct telling them otherwise but succumbed to the medical tyranny that's out there pressuring them into taking an untested vaccine in the name of science and 'caring for others'. 

And if you ask me, people are responsible for their own health.  I guess we can at least agree on the fact that those who are/were vulnerable to suffering from COVID are the ones with impaired immune systems.  This was known from the very beginning.   Well, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know that there are natural ways to boost your immune system such as supplementing with vitamin D for example (and there are many more ways of course) instead of having dubious, untested medicine injected into your veins.  So you can't even accuse 'anti-vaxxers' of being cold-blooded and stupid since it simply doesn't add up.

 

On 9-9-2023 at 8:19 PM, Danioover9000 said:

@Christoph Werner

   Myocarditis in a vaccine does not justify not taking the vaccine because MYOCARDITIS IS IN THE REAL VIRUS ALREADY!!

   Stop justifying the cold blooded and empathy less anti vax people for increasing the suffering of any other people with weak immune systems, the sick and the children and the old, that depends on the majority that is vaccinated to benefit from herd immunity.  

Do you mean myocarditis caused by the vaccine?  So it’s ok to develop myocarditis from a vaccine that you could easily avoid by not taking it, but it’s not ok to get myocarditis from the virus which the majority who gets infected doesn’t get anyways, because it all depends on your immune system which I just explained can be safely boosted the natural way, but because Big Pharma doesn’t earn a dime off of natural supplements and natural free ways to boost your immune system as opposed to the -at minimum 90 billion dollars(!!!) it has made from the naive, morally superior pro-vaxxer clowns out there, you won’t hear much about these natural methods of course..can you guess why?  Well I just told you of course, but perhaps you need to contemplate on that astronomically large number just a little longer and put 2 and 2 together.  There's really no empathy and altruism involved, ok?

I hope you learn to practice what you preach, not only in terms of having genuine empathy (for ALL) but also by not calling people who disagree with you ("anti-vaxxers") disrespectful names such as 'stupid', 'cold-blooded' , 'devoid of empathy' and basically accusing them of causing the suffering of people with weak immune systems.(!!!)  Who the fuck is insane here??  Those are some nasty but also utterly baseless accusations that can easily be ascribed to your beloved Big Pharma, because those are the real heartless, cold-blooded, money-grabbing bloodsuckers who truly do not give a fuck about people's health.

On 7-9-2023 at 1:44 AM, Danioover9000 said:

 Please be civil, open minded when discussing your take on this video, don't intentionally get this thread derailed thanks:

 

[newbee]

On 9-9-2023 at 7:08 PM, Christoph Werner said:

I am not anti vax. Whoever feels to take the covid vax from the pharma businesses that they came up with in one year,  sure go ahead. But don't go on a moral high ground and look down upon those who chose not to.

On 9-9-2023 at 7:08 PM, Christoph Werner said:

 

You see when we talk about covid the truth is just that really nobody has any idea. Rationally speaking it's an incredibly complicated topic. When you think the vaccine is safe, that's a belief.  When you make all these judgements on which data are they based? How do you know your sources are reliable?  You're just parroting expert opinions that you gathered up. How do you know which expert is right? 

 

Good point!  She clearly is just parroting and cherry-picking "expert opinions" that feed into her morally superior ego, so she can look down on so-called anti-vaxxers and feel above others whom she wrongfully accuses of being heartless and stupid and even accuses them of causing the death and suffering of those who die from covid (well, it's never just from covid of course).   She has no empathy for people who suffer dire health consequences from taking the vaccine (because I know where her priorities really lie and that is her own covert narcissistic self, how else do you explain this hypocrisy?) often against their own gut instincts under the social pressure of the pro-vaxxing herd that reeks of medical tyranny. 

[Israfil]

The only point I find troublesome about the anti-vax sentiment is if it spreads to other provenly effective vaccines. You don't want to take the fastest-developed vaccine in history? I can understand that, but some crippling diseases were nearly eradicated thanks to many vaccines. People who refuse to vaccinate their children expose them and other children who cannot be vaccinated to them. The atomist dream that you can socialize the consequences of your actions with the society supporting your own life is also a dogmatic and fallacious dream. You cannot expose other people to disease in the name of your personal liberty, because other people's health is part of their rights. Your right cannot infringe on others' rights. 

[Danioover9000]

@newbee

3 hours ago, newbee said:

Lol, what kind of hypocritical statement is that!?    You’re the one constantly looking down on ‘anti-vaxxers’ calling them stupid, cold-blooded and irresponsible, unlike yourself of course. But not everyone is fooled by your covert narcissistic morally superior ego creeping through at every opportunity, you know. 

And Big Pharma's priority is to save lives ?!! looooooool To believe that is what's crazy and insane or utterly naive.

 

So where is your empathy for all the young and very fit-looking doctors (and other citizens) who died within a week from taking the Covid vaccine or experienced other atrocities such as becoming paralyzed for life?  Apparently, they don’t deserve your empathy. Bit biased much?

These people often took the vaccine, despite their gut instinct telling them otherwise but succumbed to the medical tyranny that's out there pressuring them into taking an untested vaccine in the name of science and 'caring for others'. 

And if you ask me, people are responsible for their own health.  I guess we can at least agree on the fact that those who are/were vulnerable to suffering from COVID are the ones with impaired immune systems.  This was known from the very beginning.   Well, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know that there are natural ways to boost your immune system such as supplementing with vitamin D for example (and there are many more ways of course) instead of having dubious, untested medicine injected into your veins.  So you can't even accuse 'anti-vaxxers' of being cold-blooded and stupid since it simply doesn't add up.

 

Do you mean myocarditis caused by the vaccine?  So it’s ok to develop myocarditis from a vaccine that you could easily avoid by not taking it, but it’s not ok to get myocarditis from the virus which the majority who gets infected doesn’t get anyways, because it all depends on your immune system which I just explained can be safely boosted the natural way, but because Big Pharma doesn’t earn a dime off of natural supplements and natural free ways to boost your immune system as opposed to the -at minimum 90 billion dollars(!!!) it has made from the naive, morally superior pro-vaxxer clowns out there, you won’t hear much about these natural methods of course..can you guess why?  Well I just told you of course, but perhaps you need to contemplate on that astronomically large number just a little longer and put 2 and 2 together.  There's really no empathy and altruism involved, ok?

I hope you learn to practice what you preach, not only in terms of having genuine empathy (for ALL) but also by not calling people who disagree with you ("anti-vaxxers") disrespectful names such as 'stupid', 'cold-blooded' , 'devoid of empathy' and basically accusing them of causing the suffering of people with weak immune systems.(!!!)  Who the fuck is insane here??  Those are some nasty but also utterly baseless accusations that can easily be ascribed to your beloved Big Pharma, because those are the real heartless, cold-blooded, money-grabbing bloodsuckers who truly do not give a fuck about people's health.

 

   What hypocrisy? I did state that most anti vaxxers are a bit cold blooded and irresponsible, not stupid but ignorant and ideological, because they know that by encouraging others to not take the vaccine as part of a health preparation against viruses, they are putting their lives in greater danger. For example, look at Russel Brand(now canceled for being accused of rape and too much anti mainstream talk talk) and Joe Rogan and his simplistic takes of some Ivermectin drug, which is anti parasitic drug not anti viral, for horses to treat worms, being used for the Covid-19 virus, look at their subscriber count and views. In the millions and more view them, and many of them will develop an ideological stance of anti vaccine because Big Pharma evil. How many people have suffered more from blindly believing in their anti establishment rhetoric and anti vax points? This then makes anti vaxxers cold blooded and irresponsible, guilty by accomplice to helping the virus spread, and helping the virus infiltrate other human bodies not prepared for Covid-19 in that 3-6 months to first year of Covid-19 spreading from Wuhan Province into Italy and the rest of the world. This exactly like MAGA trump supporters who stubbornly won't follow Covid-19 policy and taking the vaccination for others who are weaker immune systems, they don't see how important it is to slow down the spread of the virus. What happened to some of these who parrot and strongly support anti vax?

   What do you think happens to an organization, or group, if they can't do their jobs and do a function within society well enough? What do you think happens to a group, or institute, that creates more suffering than good short to long term? They are destroyed early on in history, same thing with the French Monarchy, they pissed off the French people, didn't adjust and adapted, hence the French Revolution took place because the French Monarchy made the people suffer immensely. So, since big pharma has survived for more than 100 years and counting, do you agree that they're serving a function in society and are still providing some value then? After all, to you big pharma is the devil that's killing so many people, making them sick and all that...yet they're still here, treating physical injuries in trauma centers like putting casts and saving lives from severe physical damages, providing some relief with pain killers, making western medicine more widely accessible and better equipment.

   People often took a vaccine despite their gut feeling...because of medical tyranny? So you believe that doctors, and the WHO, are a bunch of dictators?

   My empathy is for the ones with immune system disorders, weaker immune systems, respiratory and heart issues that are more at danger to Covid-19, more so than to healthy fit young doctors that died due to the virus, because I'm a human being with finite time, energy, attention, and empathy, that I have to be selectively biased and preferential to some places and some groups of people. I don't have infinite empathy, and neither do you, so attacking me for limited empathy is a mute point. That point of bringing up that Chinese doctor that died young and fit is to show the other user how dangerous Covid-19 was in Wuhan province, with no vaccination in his system, no other health boosting practices, and he is very reasonably fit and healthy, yet he died of the virus with no protection, which undermines this herd immunity seeking and no vaccination from immature stage green hippies, new agers and SJW types.

   I mean myocarditis caused by the Covid-19 virus firstly, then a fraction by the Mrna technology. No, that's a straw man of my point, first yes it's bad to get myocarditis from the Covid-19 virus with no vaccination beforehand. Side effect of a vaccine is a fraction of the effect of the original virus it's based off of, so you're in fact ignoring proper cost comparison, cost of getting myocarditis from a vaccine versus cost of myocarditis from the real Covid-19 virus. The real Covid-19 virus is far worse than the side effect of a vaccine. Basically, myocarditis side effects from a vaccine is a derivative from the original which is far worse, multiple times worse than the vaccine and the spiked protein shell of the virus. It's basic mathematics, distribution, derivatives. and science. You do know basic mathematics and science right? 

   Taking your logic and anti vaxxer logic, if anti vaxxers had their way, they'd block the polio vaccination because it's has side effects, don't take them, don't make them because big pharma evil. Therefore, people suffer with polio far longer because anti vaxxers don't take and stop pharma from making polio vaccine to save lives. That's why polio vaccines are made, distributed, and killed majority of polio, worked and saved far more lives than anti vaxxer denials and delusional takes will. This is why capitalism and pharmacy works, and anti vax delusions don't.

   Maybe try to be more good faith and charitable to my position first, and less cursing and name calling and trolling me with misinformation of the anti vax points, and less fear mongering big pharma boogeyman and bad points.

[Danioover9000]

@Israfil

4 hours ago, Israfil said:

The only point I find troublesome about the anti-vax sentiment is if it spreads to other provenly effective vaccines. You don't want to take the fastest-developed vaccine in history? I can understand that, but some crippling diseases were nearly eradicated thanks to many vaccines. People who refuse to vaccinate their children expose them and other children who cannot be vaccinated to them. The atomist dream that you can socialize the consequences of your actions with the society supporting your own life is also a dogmatic and fallacious dream. You cannot expose other people to disease in the name of your personal liberty, because other people's health is part of their rights. Your right cannot infringe on others' rights. 

   This is basically my position simplified down, albeit it's simplified more than mine.

[Israfil]

59 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Israfil

   This is basically my position simplified down, albeit it's simplified more than mine.

No serious opinion is one paragraph long. I was just responding to the "individual rights" argument that was posed.