With Articles Like This....people are slowly waking up

[Razard86]

Read this article and notice...the subtle influence of mysticism...slowly seeping into this discussion...

https://www.heathercaliri.com/im-autistic-and-autism-doesnt-exist/

[zurew]

@Carl-Richard We need your pushback here.

[Carl-Richard]

On 5.9.2023 at 8:06 PM, zurew said:

@Carl-Richard We need your pushback here.

If you insist ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Diagnostic manuals for psychiatric diseases do have legitimate issues that are valid to question, and it basically boils down to the fact that it's hard to measure something psychological using quantitative measurements (the things that make us think physical sciences are more scientific). I won't disagree with that. I could've through this gone point by point, but I think this one quote is sufficient:

 

Quote

All the words we use for what’s going on in our brains, like “autism” or “depression” or “bipolar” or “personality disorder” are labels created for and upheld by the DSM.

But not the International Classification of Diseases (ICD)? The existence of many of these concepts predate both the DCM and the ICD. Maybe the better way to put it is that the DSM and the ICD help us define better what we mean by these terms and how we should diagnose and treat them, because what existed before was not better (i.e. some paternalistic psychoanalyst merely making the authoritative decision that based on their expertise and clinical experience with the patient, the patient has x disease). We should appreciate that there are attempts at making universalized systems for classifying diseases that holds the practitioners to at least some standards other than their own. But again, that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to be better.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Danioover9000]

@Razard86

On 2023-09-05 at 6:42 PM, Razard86 said:

Read this article and notice...the subtle influence of mysticism...slowly seeping into this discussion...

https://www.heathercaliri.com/im-autistic-and-autism-doesnt-exist/

   I don't even know how to make sense of your title sir. It's uncommon for people to wake up from mornings because an article helps wake them up. In fact reading fiction and especially non fiction can be more boring, and actually induces sleep like consciousness, so this argument that an article is waking people up is misleading at best, unless you want to add that maybe the notification bells wake people up?

   Far more common is that people wake up from alarm bells or sunshine.

[Danioover9000]

@Razard86

On 2023-09-05 at 6:42 PM, Razard86 said:

Read this article and notice...the subtle influence of mysticism...slowly seeping into this discussion...

https://www.heathercaliri.com/im-autistic-and-autism-doesnt-exist/

   The only part that does makes sense is that yes most people do wake up slowly in the morning, with exceptions of getting shocked out of bed or a nightmare scenario, most do wake up slowly.

[Carl-Richard]

@Danioover9000 My guy, my dude, buddy, we're not talking about waking up in the morning. Razard thinks saying "autism is just a theory" is a sign of mysticism and spiritual awakening  

Edited September 7, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[UnbornTao]

Avoid making up bullshit as much as possible.

[Carl-Richard]

38 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

Avoid making up bullshit as much as possible.

But if you can't eliminate existing bullshit, you should try to polish it. And we can't eliminate the need to classify people as psychologically unwell, at least not in our current society.

[UnbornTao]

8 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

But if you can't eliminate existing bullshit, you should try to polish it. And we can't eliminate the need to classify people as psychologically unwell, at least not in our current society.

I meant Razard's attempt at making up a cosmology. 

You're conflating a psychological condition with direct consciousness.

Edited September 8, 2023 by UnbornTao

[toasty7718]

I have my issues with the psychiatric system mostly due to the fact that I personally know many people who were fucked over by anti-depressants and anti-psychotics. That's a topic for another time though. 

[Carl-Richard]

I looked at the article some more, and quite ironically, virtually all the points she brings up, I've heard been brought up from within the scientific establishment (or at least the education side of it). I feel there is a tendency for laymen to latch onto a critical view of some field they know very little about when it affects them personally (which is understandable) and to also think that they're the only ones to see what they're seeing. As I got futher into my education, I also started seeing Leo falling into this pattern to some degree. People give little credit to the actual scientists who try to provide solutions to these problems and want to go by rough extrinsic appearances that are 20 years behind the current frontier and tear down a strawman. But hey, sometimes the best critiques come from outside a paradigm. You still have to be realistic though.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[zurew]

@Carl-Richard Thank you for the breakdown.

I see too much people who are very easily dismissive of things without knowing anything about those things.

[Gidiot]

I think its telling that if we understand "mental illness" so well why cant we come up with a sure fire treatment or cure?

Seems to me that we don have anything better than symptom suppressants  and all these labels while having a function aren't conclusive and really all it does it box you in/ disempower you, none the less the societal stigma around it.

 

 it may be obvious to spot that someone has something wrong with their stability and mental balance/function but how can you then give it a lifelong label that is just identification of symptoms without knowing the cause or really how to cure it? it may not be mental in origin, it could be the air/ habits/diet/ etc etc.

this is a big area where western medicine fails. its too logical and trying to classify everything and label it beyond genetic defects and such i feel like its hard to really pin down what causes/cures or treats "mental illness" and dont feel like there is a solid understanding of it.

 

which calls me to believe that it is much more spiritual in nature beyond just chemistry and taking a pill. 

 

bipolar, autism, and the like arent concrete at all they are labels of observable symptoms and behavior and the funny thing is not many experts would believe that there is anything metaphysical about them or placebo or self created and to me as long as they dont admit that, i cant take the system seriously.

 

 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Gidiot

[Danioover9000]

@Carl-Richard

On 2023-09-07 at 10:44 PM, Carl-Richard said:

@Danioover9000 My guy, my dude, buddy, we're not talking about waking up in the morning. Razard thinks saying "autism is just a theory" is a sign of mysticism and spiritual awakening  

   Sorry I was taking the mic. Yes on the relative level there's distinctions between mental illnesses/health/fitness and disorders, compared and contrasted to those mystical, spiritual, supernatural and paranormal experiences or even psychedelic and hallucinatory experiences. Closer to the absolute existential level, there's little distinction, hence that saying that 'the crazies swim in the mystic waters.', to paraphrase.

[Carl-Richard]

@Gidiot

We're not very good at predicting the weather, but we still have different names for different types of weather. An umbrella is only a symptomatic suppressant for rainy weather, but we still prefer using it when it's rainy. Nobody really starts speculating about metaphysics when the weatherman diagnoses the weather, and nobody really thinks that much about whether or not to take meteorology seriously.

Again, I think people tend to get fixated on a critical view of something when it affects them personally. For people with mental illnesses being critical of psychiatry, it can be social stigma. For spiritual people being critical of say science, it can be scientists pushing back against their worldview. In both cases, the response is understandable, but it's largely driven by an emotional investment and sometimes plain ignorance of the facts.

On the note of metaphysical speculation, the times people do invoke metaphysical speculations about the weather is more often when it affects them personally. For example, some Americans might think that God wanted to punish them when the tornado destroyed their house and nobody else's. But most people who observe that from the outside will think that it's of course primarily an emotional response rather than a logical one.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Danioover9000]

@Carl-Richard

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

@Gidiot

We're not very good at predicting the weather, but we still have different names for different types of weather. An umbrella is only a symptomatic suppressant for rainy weather, but we still prefer using it when it's rainy. Nobody really invokes metaphysical speculation when the weatherman diagnoses the weather, and nobody thinks much about taking meteorology seriously. Again, I think some people get fixated on a critical view of something that affects them disproportionally (through things like social stigma), and it's mostly emotional rather than logical.

On the note of metaphysical speculation, the times people do invoke metaphysical speculation about the weather is when it affects them disproportionally. For example, some Americans might think that God wanted to punish them when the tornado destroyed their house and nobody else's. But most people observing that from the outside will think that is of course primarily an emotional rather than a logical response.

   'Language creates your reality.' so to speak.

[Carl-Richard]

7 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Carl-Richard

   'Language creates your reality.' so to speak.

I don't see the connection.