How's Western Culture/Capitalism is Superior Than Islam And Muslims

[rnd]

You haven't explained anything. Nor have you responded to my direct question

Edited September 8, 2023 by rnd

[rnd]

30 minutes ago, Mesopotamian said:

Had you been a US president, things would've looked different to you than if you're not involved. 

If.... If grandmonther had a dick, she'd be a grandfother. Yes.

 

And yes, I'd be itching to invade some country. Why not? A lot of military might, money are printed. Unlimited money. A lot of fun invading a country. Demonstrate others that "our country -- USA -- gives no shit to any rule whatsoever", whist demanding that others abide all the rules, written and unwritten, and even those that USA comes up with on the fly.

And the resources of an invaded country, oil for instance. Occupy some territory with oil, and sell it. Look at Syria.


And? Does this mean that it'd be a right thing to do?
If I was a president of US, I'd also invaded some country such as Iraq, therefore it's a right thing to do -- this is bullshit.


I could also say - if you were Kim John Un, you'd also run  North Korea the same way as he does.
The same goes for Iraq.
Therefore, what are you unhappy about?

Edited September 8, 2023 by rnd

[Mesopotamian]

6 hours ago, rnd said:

And yes, I'd be itching to invade some country. Why not? A lot of military might, money are printed. Unlimited money. A lot of fun invading a country. Demonstrate others that "our country -- USA -- gives no shit to any rule whatsoever", whist demanding that others abide all the rules, written and unwritten, and even those that USA comes up with on the fly.

Pretty much this is how your world works since the dawn of humanity, Do you think by sitting and crying you're going to change anything? 

 

6 hours ago, rnd said:

And the resources of an invaded country, oil for instance. Occupy some territory with oil, and sell it. Look at Syria.

Those are resources of the whole world, and a 'country' is just an abstract idea.. 

6 hours ago, rnd said:

And? Does this mean that it'd be a right thing to do?
If I was a president of US, I'd also invaded some country such as Iraq, therefore it's a right thing to do -- this is bullshit.

Good luck for you were able to resist! you've never been in a great man's shoes, so you don't know how things work at that level!

6 hours ago, rnd said:

I could also say - if you were Kim John Un, you'd also run  North Korea the same way as he does.

Of course! 

6 hours ago, rnd said:

what are you unhappy about?

I guess I am oh more ore less, there's nothing specific I am very unhappy about..

 

[Guest Tobia]

2 hours ago, Mesopotamian said:

Pretty much this is how your world works since the dawn of humanity, Do you think by sitting and crying you're going to change anything? 

@Mesopotamian @Mesopotamian 

you are certainly going to change a lot by claiming the Iraq war was for "freedom for iraqi people".

That's hilarious. Not even neoconservative imperialist hardliners still have the courage to make such wild claims.

A million people dead, ISIS everywhere, starvation and desease, millions of refugees, country's infrastructure destroyed and Iran's influence is stronger than ever. Wow, freedom was brought!

[Mesopotamian]

23 minutes ago, Tobia said:

A million people dead, ISIS everywhere, starvation and desease, millions of refugees, country's infrastructure destroyed and Iran's influence is stronger than ever. Wow, freedom was brought!

Maybe Iraq isn't meant to be a country. It's an artificial country in my eyes.. and also I was 22 back then, ready to join an army if I hadn't been studying.. Fought in Saddam's stupid wars.. so the war freed me basically.. it's for my freedom, and I am Iraqi.

Everything has a cost, A million would've died anyways in Saddam's wars..

Look at what Saddam has done :

 

Do you support him staying in power? or whatever dead number of people? you have to decide, and if you can't make one, then somebody else will make a decision. 

[Ayham]

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They draw borders, and call them countries. However, That's not going to work, part of that is because imposing this system on nations that are not ready.

Iraqis are not ready for a state, they (we) are dumb, we have no experience at all.. our laws are copied from elsewhere. 

In the light of the above, try not to fall in the trap of comparing states. Iraq is a house of card that will collapse very soon. 

I agree very much to this

 

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try not to compare, "iraqis" is an imaginary term

while I agree this is all imaginary, I think it is necessary to compare for the sake of understanding

 

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probably there's no country in the world like this, and considering how Iraq is a house of card, it will soon disintegrate and go to war. Try to get  your passport like I did, so that if things start to go downhill, you can at least get out and not witness a war. you don't need to see more wars. 

Yeah, it will definitely disintegrate, I have no idea how it is still standing (that is if you consider it standing)
My passport is a bit difficult due to some legal problems, I will be able to easily do it when 18, which is close.

 

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Hope you won't discuss where from bro haha.. 

But overall I am happy that you're here too on the forum.

Apologies, I edited my post.
Thank you, I am glad for your existence here too  

[rnd]

@Mesopotamian I could respond but I won't even read your response.

 

The title itself "Western Culture/Capitalism is Superior Than Islam And Muslims" is a complete nonse. It could've been asked  by the one who's naive, lacks nuance and is mentally a child.

Or by the one who lives in a muslim country blaming their own governemnt for everything thus projecting this to the whole Muslim culture, which (projection) in itself has been caused by falling to the Western propaganda.
 

 

Questions to you @Mesopotamian

What's better: tractor or ferrari?
Dog or cappuchino?
Man or a hat?
Smartphone or shark?
Orange or railway station?
Ant or a dream?
 

Better for WHAT? Better according to whom? Give me the definition of *better* to begin with.

 

And I'm not from the Muslim culture, nor from the Western, but from Eurasia.

Edited September 9, 2023 by rnd

[Mesopotamian]

11 hours ago, rnd said:

Orange or railway station?

Comparing anything ton anything is a fun game, even ChatGPT agrees: 

1-Portable Snack: An orange is a convenient, portable snack that you can enjoy on the go, while a rail station is not edible at all (and it's generally frowned upon to snack on train platforms).

2- No Delays: Oranges don't experience train delays or cancellations, which can be frustrating for commuters relying on a rail station.

3- No Ticket Needed: You don't need to buy a ticket to access the deliciousness of an orange, whereas using a rail station typically requires a fare.

4- Vitamin C Boost: Oranges are a great source of vitamin C, which can help boost your immune system. A rail station, on the other hand, doesn't offer any health benefits.

5- Zero Carbon Emissions: Oranges are environmentally friendly, as they naturally grow on trees without contributing to carbon emissions. Rail stations, while important for transportation, can have an environmental impact due to energy consumption and infrastructure.

If the other way around:

1- Endless Connections: A rail station provides endless opportunities for travel and exploration, connecting you to various destinations, while an orange can only be enjoyed in one place.

2- Community Hub: Rail stations are bustling hubs of activity where people from different backgrounds come together, fostering a sense of community and interaction. An orange, despite its deliciousness, doesn't have quite the same social appeal.

3- Economic Impact: Rail stations play a crucial role in transportation networks and can contribute significantly to the local economy by boosting tourism and trade. Oranges, though delightful, can't match this economic impact.

4- Shelter from the Elements: Rail stations offer shelter from the rain, snow, or scorching sun, ensuring a comfortable wait for your train. An orange can't protect you from the weather.

5- Infinite Possibilities: Rail stations open up a world of possibilities for travel, adventure, and new experiences. An orange, as tasty as it is, can't transport you to exciting new places or cultures.

[Mesopotamian]

@rnd also you can watch that if you haven't yet

 

[Danioover9000]

@Tobia

On 08/09/2023 at 0:21 PM, Tobia said:

@Mesopotamian @Mesopotamian 

you are certainly going to change a lot by claiming the Iraq war was for "freedom for iraqi people".

That's hilarious. Not even neoconservative imperialist hardliners still have the courage to make such wild claims.

A million people dead, ISIS everywhere, starvation and desease, millions of refugees, country's infrastructure destroyed and Iran's influence is stronger than ever. Wow, freedom was brought!

   The main goal wasn't the official story from George Bush of freedom of Iraq people or fighting terrorism, the main reason why George Bush invaded was Saddam Hussein refused to negotiate and deal with the oil he has in his own land, which is an act against the American interests and it's hegemony. So when 911 happened, so instead accurately reporting that incident as down by a group of terrorists, Bush blamed all that on Saddam and his autocratic rule, and this artificial story justifies his declaration of war on Iraq.

   Furthermore, the planning of the war was a mess from the get go, as there was a changing doctrine of warfare, instead of adhering to traditional land invasion and securing an area for follow up nation building, the shock and awe doctrine was emphasized,with maximum use of technological advances in warfare, high mobility, small forces that strikes hard and disrupts communications with the enemy forces, AKA a doctrine like the blitzkrieg that Adolf Hitler did. A lot of arguing from the older generals to the newer guy that wanted to apply this new doctrine he ideologically believed would wirk, and it did work, but neglects nation building and martial laws and other phases of a mid to late invasion and occupation of a country, a state, even kingdoms.

   The Irag war was a mess, and maybe with better planning, with manpower enough to apply martial law after they deposed Saddam Hussein, and did some nation building was the best option but due to the stupidity, arrogance and exceptionalism of the western culture of the USA in particular the dumb Republican bushes, they just rushed in, did what their ego wanted, and lett Iraq in chaos to sort themselves out that it's ridiculous. The entire situation is crazy and should have been handled better, all because a piece of real estate with some people dead is justification to massacre millions of Iraqis.

[Mesopotamian]

@Danioover9000 this is the rule of the game for most of humanity's history though. You might feel that you hold the truth when you are analyzing, but if you want real change, then try to change the rules of the game. Try to learn about power hierarchies, and game theory, perhaps read the 48 Laws Of Power..

At the time of the fall of the two properties, had I been in Saddam Hussain's shoes, I would immediately announce mourning for the victim and order all Iraqis to cry over the victims,  and put my nasty dogma aside, and thus saving "Iraqi nation" and avoiding a war.. Cuz when a giant takes a hit, it's utterly madness to mock that or even to stand still doing nothing. 

Life has rules, there's wisdom in every thing, and it's up to you if you want to start believing in those, or just analyze, judge and wish it was handled in an ideal way..

[Danioover9000]

@Mesopotamian

1 hour ago, Mesopotamian said:

@Danioover9000 this is the rule of the game for most of humanity's history though. You might feel that you hold the truth when you are analyzing, but if you want real change, then try to change the rules of the game. Try to learn about power hierarchies, and game theory, perhaps read the 48 Laws Of Power..

At the time of the fall of the two properties, had I been in Saddam Hussain's shoes, I would immediately announce mourning for the victim and order all Iraqis to cry over the victims,  and put my nasty dogma aside, and thus saving "Iraqi nation" and avoiding a war.. Cuz when a giant takes a hit, it's utterly madness to mock that or even to stand still doing nothing. 

Life has rules, there's wisdom in every thing, and it's up to you if you want to start believing in those, or just analyze, judge and wish it was handled in an ideal way..

   True, I do try to be open minded and learn from different perspectives, and even learnt a bit about game theory and the 48 laws of power, and a leadership book. Even study and learnt many development modals.

   Based on development factors like stages of development, cognitive and moral development, personality typing and traits, life experiences and other lines of development in life and society domains, ideological differences in beliefs from upbringing and culture, self bias and preferences, I won't assume what Saddam could have done or should have, as he already said and did what he did in history.

   What astounds me is the astronomical lose of life in comparison. From the start of the Iraq war, to the post war, the US leaving and the start of ISIS, total lose of life from America is about 1,000, about 200 from the 911 and plane crash. In comparison Iraqis have lost roughly 10 mil or more, and some women and children as casualties in war, and drone attacks. Saw the potential lose of life, and saw the justification of this invasion was due to some damaged real estate and a 100 or so USA people, even though the real motif is the oil, that is unjustifiable grounds for invasion. Also my specific critic is that the US army was downsized, a new doctrine of technology focused attacks, and higb mobility versus the older doctrine of mobilizing larger land forces for nation building and martial law, which later leads to long term issues of maintaining order, and look at what happened to when they took out Saddam? The US soldiers stood by as looters and rioters ran around, all because there where too few soldiers.

   All this was years after the fall of the Soviet union, so the USA went from the cold war, from a triad war between the USA and Russia, and the USA and China in the Vietnam war, to transitioning into a unipolar world, where the American hegemony is a superpower now, with nukes, after the collapse of the soviet union, and China not strong enough to pose a competitive threat to the USA, which made the USA arrogant and egotistical.

[Mesopotamian]

5 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

 True, I do try to be open minded and learn from different perspectives, and even learnt a bit about game theory and the 48 laws of power, and a leadership book. Even study and learnt many development modals.

that sounds good!

6 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

Based on development factors like stages of development, cognitive and moral development, personality typing and traits, life experiences and other lines of development in life and society domains, ideological differences in beliefs from upbringing and culture, self bias and preferences, I won't assume what Saddam could have done or should have, as he already said and did what he did in history.

I am just saying that sometimes natural rules of reality takes priority. Saddam was a fucking idiot, who doesn't deserve to stat a head of a state. He forced all Iraqis to degrade the name of the US, he forced us to write down 'America' on the ground, and then step on it with dirty shoes as a gesture of insulting. He also had started a personal feud with the Bush family when he did the same and commissioned somebody to build a mosaic for George Bush Senior in a hotel lobby and everyone steps on it. This the utmost insulting in our culture..This guy Saddam was totally a moron

He went above and beyond to piss of so many US administrations with his idiocy.  

12 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

In comparison Iraqis have lost roughly 10 mil or more, and some women and children as casualties in war, and drone attacks. Saw the potential lose of life,

I don't see 10 millions that's a big number. 

Also the chaos that was going on is due to stupid people call themselves resistance and because of the fight between them and between the US troops, as stupid as Saddam Hussain was. and they (resistance) don't represent the Iraqi people! they represent themselves only, and they were using all sorts of dirty tactics to cause chaos and destruction, for the sake of an idea, a dogmatic, short-sighted idea. Their only pretext is that it is now our duty to fight the occupier, and we should! so let's bomb, kill, and cause chaos. 

I remember like 99% of the Iraqis were indifferent to the occupation! we're a culture still not about anything but raw survival, and if you would to ask anybody on the street today, they would tell you that they wouldn't care who rules them as long as they make our tummies full! yes! make us feel full (food wise). That's what the Iraqi truly want, abundance of food and money, and they don't give an F about anything else. 

Also and I know this might upset you, but with Abu-Gharib incidents and making them public, I thought that was genius and it's done on purpose! In my mind, somebody finally found out that those stupid muslim fighters' biggest fear is homosexuality! so they made it seem that who goes into those prisons will be violated. I even have my doubt and I feel it was all staged! This has put an end to those stupid resistance factions and made them history. 

 

[Mesopotamian]

@Danioover9000 I feel it would be a balanced point of view if you can approach things without biases. If you are talking about 'nations' and 'countries' you kinda need to also take in account that those nations should be wise, and stand up for themselves, and know their position among other nations, and if they can't do so, they they will get humiliated and even probably cease to exist! 

I feel when you demand more caution in war, and thorough planning that you're being highly biased, demanding too much from reality. 

Also you're implicitly encouraging more wars! cuz nations, and statism is based on wars and conflict, and the latter probably are building blocks for nations and countries. Maybe if some countries cease to exist there might be less conflicts overall in the world! not more countries! 

More countries = more fights and disputes over borders, more invasions, more deaths

The current world order is achieved through wars, and you want to come now and think like, well let's do things differently, why can't we do things differently? 

Now some people want a state for Kurds, but guess what! if Kurds would have their own state, they will be fighting wars with at least four countries! Iraq, Turkey, Syria, and Iran!! Everything has a price, but many are missing the point. More states=more wars..

MAybe some states should be dissolved altogether, and that could lead to better peace and prosperity!

[Danioover9000]

   This is an interesting debate, which Hitchens later regretted supporting the Iraq war, but certainly at that time and moment it felt to him justified to do so. Is this because he's being influenced by the cultural zeitgeist of America's hate?

    Another example of why it's important to know and realize and be aware that there's so many developmental factors involved, from individual to collective systems.

[Mesopotamian]

@Danioover9000 I feel it all boils down to who gives people the right to interfere and change regimes and rage wars. And the answer is simple, this is all a probably a continuation for the revolutionary spirit that mankind enjoys. America is built on a revolution, and was forged through a war. And I find it natural that this will continue for several hundred years to come. All discussions in this regards are waste of time.