How's Western Culture/Capitalism is Superior Than Islam And Muslims

[Mesopotamian]

As many of you know I am living in Iraq, and although I haven't had the chance yet to taste living in western culture, I can see and feel the suffering in my country and how it stems from adopting corrupt values. 

And this connect the eternal argument about the war on iraq and is it right or wrong. And for that You might need to watch this mini documentary about how it is impossible to escape North Korea these days.

When you were wishing that there was no Iraq war, you were basically siding with a dictator who will over time will try to isolate millions of people and perpetuate their sufferings. 

ONE LESS DICTATOR ON THIS PLANET IS BETTER FOR ALL PEOPLE!

Back to my original point of how capitalism is superior to Islam. And one claim of mine is that capitalism and western culture stemmed originally from Greek mythology, and within that mythology as I've read, there was so many Gods, a god for war, god for fertility, god for sea, rain.. etc, and after thousands of years, somebody invented the production and assembly line, and this concept of specialization, where each individual can excel in a specific task, and the work then come together at the assembly line.

Here in Iraq, this concept virtually non-existent. I live at a hotel, and the hotel owner always wants to hire workers, and judge them based on how many tasks they can excel at at the same time, whether management, cleaning, electricity wiring, pluming, etc. He wants to have super workers who can do everything. And in my  mind, this is due to our culture, islamic culture, where there's one God, Allah, and one God only! the god of everything. This is just a simple example, and it's a war between new and modern thinking paradigm VS old one. Which one you choose to side with? 

Those who are against the war in Iraq think that they're better than the pro-war, but I want to know how and why? what are their motives? Is leaving millions of Iraqi youth under values of thousands of years ago better than taking them to capitalism where they can experience the ability and beauty of following their passion and excelling at a certain field?

 For me I feel I am a hundred times better off without a dictator ruling my life, and although so may people deny that, but in my mind, one day I could be able to get out of Iraq and follow my dreams. Unlike poor people in North Korea.

 

[Schizophonia]

Because Islam is irrational, the solution to "Western decadence" will come from a science of savoir vivre, of common sense, which is well beyond all that.

[Starlight321]

A lot of iraqi culure is also heavily unfluenced by romans and greek thought. Until 1000 years ago there were even a lot of greeks who mingled with the rest of the population over the centuries. 

I think it isn't about superiority or inferiority but developement which takes its time.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Starlight321

[Raze]

If the Iraq war was so great, why do you need to get out of Iraq to follow your dreams?

In western countries you’d be ostracized and lose your job for publicly saying some of the things you’ve said about women on here, I wouldn’t be so sure you’d fit in as well as you think.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Raze

[Mesopotamian]

7 hours ago, Raze said:

If the Iraq war was so great, why do you need to get out of Iraq to follow your dreams?

 

People are delusional. And that's making my life difficult than it should be. Do you think by opposing something hard enough you will be able to prevent it or put an end for it? how egotistical you must be!

People don't spend time to understand that they can't easily leave a dent in reality. 

Iraq war was good, and wars are good, you won't put an end to them just by resisting them! They are part of human history, was and will always be. 

It's ironic how when liberals/democrats are in power now, they are supporting the war on Ukraine for pretty much the same reason why Bush started the war in Iraq..Freedom for Iraqi people! Who would've thought! 

Truth is that just by being a westerner, you're already in and approving everything that western civilization is built upon. 

You, as a westerner is shutting your mind, and that's creating suffering for people like me in Iraq. 

I will never rebuild Iraq, I am not free here. And nobody is empowering me or protecting me or enabling me to be free and take my country to a safe shore. 

America now is supporting corrupt government in Iraq, fake democracy, I am glad they're doing so, this will create time and space for me to leave before this country goes down to hell once again. 

7 hours ago, Raze said:

In western countries you’d be ostracized and lose your job for publicly saying some of the things you’ve said about women on here, I wouldn’t be so sure you’d fit in as well as you think.

The world is big, I might not want to go to a western country

[Raze]

1 hour ago, Mesopotamian said:

People are delusional. And that's making my life difficult than it should be. Do you think by opposing something hard enough you will be able to prevent it or put an end for it? how egotistical you must be!

People don't spend time to understand that they can't easily leave a dent in reality. 

Iraq war was good, and wars are good, you won't put an end to them just by resisting them! They are part of human history, was and will always be. 

It's ironic how when liberals/democrats are in power now, they are supporting the war on Ukraine for pretty much the same reason why Bush started the war in Iraq..Freedom for Iraqi people! Who would've thought! 

Truth is that just by being a westerner, you're already in and approving everything that western civilization is built upon. 

You, as a westerner is shutting your mind, and that's creating suffering for people like me in Iraq. 

I will never rebuild Iraq, I am not free here. And nobody is empowering me or protecting me or enabling me to be free and take my country to a safe shore. 

America now is supporting corrupt government in Iraq, fake democracy, I am glad they're doing so, this will create time and space for me to leave before this country goes down to hell once again. 

The world is big, I might not want to go to a western country

If the Iraq war was so great, you wouldn’t have complaints about rebuilding and a corrupt government. The fact is, the Iraq war was not “great”. Saddam Hussein being a dictator doesn’t automatically mean deposing him was worth massacring millions, increasing terrorism in the region, and destroying infrastructure.

The USA 2003 invasion of Iraq was more similar to Russia’s behavior, they both attacked a country that had not attacked them.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Raze

[sholomar]

The family and the institution of marriage were formulated because they are instruments of social control.

A person who is on their own has nothing to lose; they have no family that can be threatened by an enemy (the government); a person with a family will always be an inert soul who supports the evil "system".

The state loves the married person; a married person is 100 times more likely to be an obedient serf & subject. He or she doesn't have the time to ponder the shit show going on all around him; he has a family to support! There are probably not even five great philosophers who were not bachelors.

This is why a bachelor is Never elected.  That said a Puritan style system with the nuclear family probably works better than any type of system we've had to date. The alternative is anarchy which is an inferior choice or collectivist authoritarian systems which don't work either so mixed capitalist systems with Democratic elections it's the best we have right now until we can alter our genome through genetic engineering.

Edited September 2, 2023 by sholomar

[Breakingthewall]

@Mesopotamian

I think the difference lies in religion. Christianity is (theoretically) the religion of love and forgiveness, while Islam is the religion of submission and punishment. the islamics are too scared and that limits them a lot and makes them false and mean. Christians are also scared and hypocriticals, but bit less.

Religions are a mental problem, and maybe Islam bit bigger than the others.

[Raze]

34 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

@Mesopotamian

I think the difference lies in religion. Christianity is (theoretically) the religion of love and forgiveness, while Islam is the religion of submission and punishment. the islamics are too scared and that limits them a lot and makes them false and mean. Christians are also scared and hypocriticals, but bit less.

Religions are a mental problem, and maybe Islam bit bigger than the others.

If that’s true, why has Christian extremism overall caused far more harm? Historically some of the worst mass atrocities were justified by it, such as the thirty years war, French wars of religion, crusades, inquisition and invasion of the Americas. Even in the modern era majority Christian countries like the USA has committed terrorism and war crimes with much steeper body counts than Muslim countries. 

Also, why is the rate different over time and in different countries, for example both Malaysia and Syria are muslim majority countries, but Syria experiences much more violence and terrorism, if the religion was the primary factor why is there a discontent? 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Raze

[Mesopotamian]

On 8/30/2023 at 10:26 PM, Raze said:

If the Iraq war was so great, you wouldn’t have complaints about rebuilding and a corrupt government.

I feel that the stupidity of anti-war masses has hindered and killed the reforms. Now that's replaced by backing a fake-democracy.

 

[toasty7718]

@Ayham weigh in on this

[Ayham]

I am from Iraq too, though I haven't had the "luxury" of living in Saddam's time (I am born in 2006)

But my view is that objectively, a stage orange capitalist government if done well is better than a stage red dictatorship. 

But our current government is bullshit, it's almost as if the government is non existent, laws are not executed properly and mostly done by tribe leaders using fire arms, the economy is extremely terrible, getting a job is more difficult than ever, the schools are terrible, I can go on and on, but I don't have to because I am sure you know how it is here. 

So before Iraq war, Iraq had better life quality and work quality, yet the dictatorship was a big problem. 

I would say it's a comparison between healthy red vs unhealthy orange, and we can't really say which is better, because I feel like most Iraqis are still at stage red, so that would work more, yet stage orange is more developed, even if it's unhealthy. 

In a sense, Saddam's leadership suits most of the people here with their red/blue mentality, but more developed people wouldn't like it as much, so Saddam is suited to iraq and it's collective mentality. 

While in our current government, most of the population is poor and keeps getting poorer, while the rich keep getting richer. 

Just getting a house here is extremely difficult, the prices keep getting higher, the payment and salaries are so low, even for people who are able to get employed, the average middle class person here won't be able to get a house here without being corrupt. 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2023 by Ayham

[Mesopotamian]

14 hours ago, Ayham said:

I am from Iraq too, though I haven't had the "luxury" of living in Saddam's time (I am born in 2006)

But my view is that objectively, a stage orange capitalist government if done well is better than a stage red dictatorship. 

Good to know there's an Iraqi here too! welcome! 

14 hours ago, Ayham said:

But my view is that objectively, a stage orange capitalist government if done well is better than a stage red dictatorship. 

But our current government is bullshit, it's almost as if the government is non existent, laws are not executed properly and mostly done by tribe leaders using fire arms, the economy is extremely terrible, getting a job is more difficult than ever, the schools are terrible, I can go on and on, but I don't have to because I am sure you know how it is here. 

Many people fall into the trap of thinking that it's only a matter of corruption and such, but the truth is that we're living in the new world order after WWII, and one of the features of this order is to worship borders as I understand it. They draw borders, and call them countries. However, That's not going to work, part of that is because imposing this system on nations that are not ready.

I can argue that imperialism should continue in better terms, and probably the harm is less on the nations. Iraqis are not ready for a state, they (we) are dumb, we have no experience at all.. our laws are copied from elsewhere. 

In the light of the above, try not to fall in the trap of comparing states. Iraq is a house of card that will collapse very soon. 

14 hours ago, Ayham said:

So before Iraq war, Iraq had better life quality and work quality, yet the dictatorship was a big problem. 

 

that was the anomaly, Iraq will descend into chaos more and more, try not to waste your time and believe what others tell you. 

14 hours ago, Ayham said:

I would say it's a comparison between healthy red vs unhealthy orange, and we can't really say which is better, because I feel like most Iraqis are still at stage red, so that would work more, yet stage orange is more developed, even if it's unhealthy. 

Here too, try not to compare, "iraqis" is an imaginary term, everything is going to go down the drain very soon. The amount of craziness that's happening in Iraq is just beyond any repair.

14 hours ago, Ayham said:

Just getting a house here is extremely difficult, the prices keep getting higher, the payment and salaries are so low, even for people who are able to get employed, the average middle class person here won't be able to get a house here without being corrupt. 

probably there's no country in the world like this, and considering how Iraq is a house of card, it will soon disintegrate and go to war. Try to get  your passport like I did, so that if things start to go downhill, you can at least get out and not witness a war. you don't need to see more wars. 

14 hours ago, Ayham said:

I am living in Baghdad btw so that's where I am speaking from, I am originally from mosul, but Isis thing happened, I recall that you are also from Mosul but currently living in Erbil? 

 

Hope you won't discuss where from bro haha.. 

But overall I am happy that you're here too on the forum..

[Hardkill]

If authoritarian regimes had checks and balances then I think those kinds of governments could work.

[rnd]

On 29/8/2023 at 4:33 PM, Mesopotamian said:

And this connect the eternal argument about the war on iraq and is it right or wrong.

 

Are you ok with the fact  that one "superiour culture" with silenent approval and participation of other "superiour" cultures one day -- 20 mar 2003 -- invaded your country and destroyed it?

And then they even admitted that all this happened for no reason.

Edited September 7, 2023 by rnd

[Mesopotamian]

9 hours ago, rnd said:

Are you ok with the fact  that one "superiour culture" with silenent approval and participation of other "superiour" cultures one day -- 20 mar 2003 -- invaded your country and destroyed it?

And then they even admitted that all this happened for no reason.

you can look at it like this, but truly you're not involved in the process probably, just an outsider, reiterating opinions of others.

Try to be honest, what's your degree of involvement? in the Iraqi war, in the Ukraine war, in any war your country engages with (assuming you're American)

[rnd]

3 hours ago, Mesopotamian said:

you can look at it like this, but truly you're not involved in the process probably, just an outsider, reiterating opinions of others.

I'm not involved, and am an outsider to the Iraq war and not an american.
And? What would have changed in regards to the facts? Which even US itself has admited, yet never has been panished.

If I was involved in the Iraq war, woud have I discovered that it was really Iraq that invaded US and Europe and destroyed them? And US and the allies never invaded Iraq? Or what?

Edited September 8, 2023 by rnd

[Mesopotamian]

2 minutes ago, rnd said:

If I was involved in the Iraq war, woud have discovered that it was really Iraq that invaded US and Europe?

you could reach a lot of conclusion. 

Had you been a US president, things would've looked different to you than if you're not involved. 

Had you been in the mind of an Iraqi, you would think otherwise too.. 

just the fact that I am an Iraqi, and I don't really mind the war, should tell you so much 

[rnd]

1 minute ago, Mesopotamian said:

just the fact that I am an Iraqi, and I don't really mind the war, should tell you so much 

You praise the US that they invaded your country,  in an attempt to save the people there like you.  Right?

[Mesopotamian]

4 minutes ago, rnd said:

You praise the US that they invaded your country,  in an attempt to save the people there like you.  Right?

that's a very shallow perspective if I think like that.. 

I am detached from Iraq and half way out of the door.. Iraq isn't my country. It doesn't even feel like it's my country, heck it doesn't feel like a country!