Is Knowing Fundamental Like Perception?

[Osaid]

8 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

for those who trust chat gpt:

 

No way? When did ChatGPT become so spiritual

[gettoefl]

1 hour ago, Osaid said:

No way? When did ChatGPT become so spiritual

you have to coax it along ... its like a kindergartener 

[integral]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It's important to distingush between knowledge vs understanding/comprehension.

Knowledge is conceptual and thought-based. Understanding is something deeper and more fundamental. Consciousness has the capacity to comprehend situations, which is a pre-linguistic thing. Comprehension tends to come naturally after a certain amount of experience. However, you can still strip the comprehension away and just have direct experience without any comprehension.

Everything is formless before comprehensions, comprehension is what shapes. Even stripping away comprehension is the comprehension of no-comprehension. comprehension is inescapable. Only in deep sleep is there true no-comprehension and so it is formless. Waking up and going to sleep is the switch that turns comprehension on and off, the form and formless. 

If we look at a flower comprehension is what created it, then by a spontaneous miracle comprehension can change creating a new flower a new miracle. Never ending miracles.  

Can form exist with out comprehension? Direct experience with out comprehension seems only possible in deep sleep, as shaping stops what is left is formless. 

Dont get me wrong im writing this to get feed back from you and thoughts. 

Edited August 23, 2023 by integral

[Inliytened1]

15 hours ago, integral said:

If we look at a flower for example part of the direct experience is a knowing of what it is and a understanding even of how it works. This knowing is automatic, there are no thoughts about it, its a automatic knowing. Its impossble to look at it and not know it.

Its impossible to see or hear or experience sense with out also having some conditioned knowing. Its impossible to look at the hand and not know its a hand, that does not mean it cant change.

Knowing can change, its constantly changing, look at something long enough and knowing changes to something else. Another person at a different stage of development or a cat or insect will have a knowing that is competly different aka interpretation. 

What im asking is, is knowing fundamentaly unavoidable and part of direct experience and even the knowing of "not knowing" is a knowing, because you know you dont know what your looking at. 

Knowing just seems to always be there. Is it fundamental? 

Is there absolute knowing?

---

What im directly experiencing is anyting that is experienced is Truth. If its a thought, its truth, if its a wtv its truth. It doesnt need to be reduced or changed it just IS it always. 

The reason im asking this quesiton is in response to non-dual neo advaita stuff that is trying to define enlightenment as a specific state.

Being or Actuality is fundamental and prior to knowing.  Knowing in the way you are describing it is interpretation.   Being is prior to interpretation.   Maybe you are talking about Being and not interpretation.    Understanding is Being really.  But that is different from interpretation. 

Edited August 23, 2023 by Inliytened1

[Monomachus]

This is because knowledge originates from perception.

[integral]

1 hour ago, Inliytened1 said:

Understanding is Being really.  But that is different from interpretation. 

Understanding/Comprehension/Knowing is Being because its a part of direct experience. Wtv the comprehension of a flower is, is actuality and it can change and that to is actuality. Interpretation = changing of form, actuality is always changing in form that is interpretation.

A flowers physical appearance can be the same but it can be comprehended differently, that is a change in form = interpretation. Knowing or Comprehension is what is shaping formless.

As the comment above your ^^^

1 hour ago, integral said:

Everything is formless before comprehensions, comprehension is what shapes. Even stripping away comprehension is the comprehension of no-comprehension. comprehension is inescapable. Only in deep sleep is there true no-comprehension and so it is formless. Waking up and going to sleep is the switch that turns comprehension on and off, the form and formless. 

If we look at a flower comprehension is what created it, then by a spontaneous miracle comprehension can change creating a new flower a new miracle. Never ending miracles.  

Can form exist with out comprehension? Direct experience with out comprehension seems only possible in deep sleep, as shaping stops what is left is formless. 

Thats what I think is going on lol 

 

Edited August 23, 2023 by integral

[integral]

@ZzzleepingBear @gettoefl @Ajax @LastThursday @ivankiss @Javfly33 @HMD Hey sorry guys for not responding Im struggling just to write 1 response lmao, If you have stuff to add to the other comments, please join in. 

Edited August 23, 2023 by integral

[Hojo]

 

i think there is a specific left brain human knowing and a fundamental knowing like throughout creatures.

im not sure if animals think or are automatic but we will say and ant might be automatic

as human knowledge i can name the ant decribe how it acts and know what its going to do through my special language

but if that part of me were to instantly dissapear along with all my concepts if i probably wouldnt know anything at that point and be confused, i might be so fucked i die from losing this.

maybe an ant dosent have this part it can know things without thinking about them ie.building a ant hill, looking for food. but has actions specifically needed to be known to be an ant which is absolutely nothing in the universe except to that specific life form.

so i think the universe does know what it needs to know to survive by default.

maybe a fish is better to think about instead of ant. Ants build bridges and  stuff

Edited August 23, 2023 by Hojo

[UnlovingGod]

Just now, Osaid said:

No way? When did ChatGPT become so spiritual

ChatGPT really depends on the inputs you give. When you ask ChatGPT about a specific Data, it gives the output of the specific Data. Else it gives you the norm of the ideology.

When I wanted ChatGPT to write my opinion more formal, it did not want to do it and disputed my opinion. It just gave a fuck about helping me formulating my opinion on certain scientific articles and tried to convince me, that I'm wrong.

Edited August 24, 2023 by UnlovingGod

[Osaid]

 

8 hours ago, gettoefl said:

you have to coax it along ... its like a kindergartener 

Lol I guess this makes sense. I've literally "coaxed" it into thinking that a basic math equation was wrong.

 

[integral]

9 hours ago, integral said:

Waking up and going to sleep is the switch that turns comprehension on and off, the form and formless.

lol to reply to my self, this is wrong as there is no direct experience of a sleep state. Im stupid lol

Direct experience is both form and formless at the same time. 

Edited August 24, 2023 by integral

[Bobby_2021]

13 hours ago, Sidra khan said:

Exactly ? ??

????????

@Sidra khan did you understand anything for real? ?

[gettoefl]

3 hours ago, Osaid said:

 

Lol I guess this makes sense. I've literally "coaxed" it into thinking that a basic math equation was wrong.

 

crazy huh

what works for me is to give it some warm up statements and tell it just answer true or false

this primes the pump and gets it thinking the way you want so you can get it to do some heavy lifting

[ZzzleepingBear]

 @integral you seem to put alot of emphasis on comprehension. And about that, I would say that comprehension is the inherit understanding in relation between matter and being.

A example of comprehension between matter and being is your reaction to danger. You may feel something sharp or very hot and pull yourself away before you  intellectually have comprehended what you felt. 

This means that being in relation with matter, understand and comprehend energy(form) on a more subtle level than the intellect does. So intellectual comprehension is merely the experiencial residues, resulting in a meta comprehension as a result of direct experience through being.

Hope that makes sense.

[LastThursday]

I suspect this thread is just a honey trap for the philosophers on the forum...

 

I don't know, there's a lot of words being thrown about as if we really comprehend them and that we have a common understanding of them - we don't, so we end up going around in circles. But that's fun, like a merry-go-round.

My personal intuition is something like:

1.  Consciousness/reality can introspect itself. So even a void could be aware of itself or "know" itself or "comprehend" itself.

2. This introspection can ramp up in complexity, to the point where a flower is recognised. It's something like awareness can tie itself into ever more complicated knots.

3. There's no difference between the ability to introspect and the thing itself. Reality/consciousness is simply "knowing" in all it's glory, and nothing else.

 

Time for breakfast.

[integral]

5 hours ago, ZzzleepingBear said:

 @integral you seem to put alot of emphasis on comprehension. And about that, I would say that comprehension is the inherit understanding in relation between matter and being.

A example of comprehension between matter and being is your reaction to danger. You may feel something sharp or very hot and pull yourself away before you  intellectually have comprehended what you felt. 

This means that being in relation with matter, understand and comprehend energy(form) on a more subtle level than the intellect does. So intellectual comprehension is merely the experiencial residues, resulting in a meta comprehension as a result of direct experience through being.

Hope that makes sense.

Everything is mind, actuality or reality is Your mind. Comprehension is contently changing but the act of comprehending doesn't.

When we look at out hand and uncomprehend it, that is comprehension of no-comprehension. 

When in a meta-frame of understanding the nature of reality, that's comprehension.

Its interwoven into the experience. 

---

Looking at the hand in silence with a meta-frame there also exists comprehension there.

Comprehension is always there in every experience but what is being comprehended changes constantly. 

Edited August 24, 2023 by integral

[Razard86]

On 8/23/2023 at 1:45 AM, gettoefl said:

truth = relative + absolute

knowing = dual knowing + direct knowing

direct is without mind

dual is subject object

at any time one can do either

direct happens first, without prompting

then dual is superimposing on the direct which is absolute

This is the correct answer great job!!

[Rafael Thundercat]

Check Videos like The power of not knowing. There is a point crutial that I ready had a direct experience in a psycadelic trip and now I carry with me every day. The very moment of knowing something is already being, is existing as well as a vision,a smell, a feeling. Knowing just Is, the very figment of your having an Aha moment is Being, if was not Being you would not having the moment of acknowledgement. But as far as your direct experience shows you came to know something, even if you came to know that the name of that X object is "flower", the X object and you naming it as flower, flor, blummen, whatever, this very moment is existing Forever, if it would not exist you could not having it. Rigth now I am listening drops of water making noise in my toilet. This knowing is existing.