Being aware of Absolute Truth is Impossible

[Breakingthewall]

@KatiesKarma your friend is smart. Here everyone confuses the absolute truth with experience, and the experience is the illusion, it's not false, it's relative. infinity is nothing, if it is something, it is because it is relative. absolute truth is beyond description, it is a revelation, nothing can be said about it. is the total void. Being the absolute void is the truth, and it is the liberation. but that empty sounds bad, like something negative. it's the other way around. it is empty because being infinite, it has no limits, it is everything, but it is nothing because can't be contrasted. To get to that, you have to get rid of all ideas about ultimate reality, and here there is a lot of corruption with God, love, that you hide from yourself because you don't want to be alone, that you play and imagine everything as a set for fool you, that you are a little pink pony, you, you,  etc.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[KatiesKarma]

31 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Your current experience is Absolute Truth.

You are over-complicating it. Truth does not mean you have to experience everything. Whatever your experience happens to be, that's Truth.

My current experience is Relative Truth, an infinitely small aspect of what Absolute Truth is. A different kind of infinity, maybe.

If this were Absolute, it would have to be infinite, infinitely persistent. But it is not, since I have limits. What do you even mean by my experience, the sum of my perception?

 

 

 

1 hour ago, LastThursday said:

Bang on, I say.

And yet, here you are describing it in language.

"infinity" is a word, so it surely points to something we can experience or think about.

 

[KatiesKarma]

32 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

What is infinity? 

Something that persists indefinitely with neither ending nor beginning. That which is ungraspable due to its very own nature.

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, KatiesKarma said:

My current experience is Relative Truth, an infinitely small aspect of what Absolute Truth is. A different kind of infinity, maybe.

If this were Absolute, it would have to be infinite, infinitely persistent.

Well, you're wrong about that.

Truth is a very tricky thing. Which is why Awakening is required to understand it. No unawakened person knows what Truth is, nor do most so-called awakened people.

In the end Truth is very simple, but your mind is so full of wrong ideas about it that you are all tangled up and confused.

Just take a moment to look closely at your hand. That's Absolute Truth.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Razard86]

7 minutes ago, KatiesKarma said:

Something that persists indefinitely with neither ending nor beginning. That which is ungraspable due to its very own nature.

There are some practices you can do to understand what is meant by Reality is Infinite. Close your eyes....now imagine a road...walk that road. Notice....you can walk that road in your mind....forever. Now open your eyes....notice that when you close your eyes and open them, the screen you are seeing...is wider than your head. So your mind CANNOT be in your head. This means your mind....is the screen that you are viewing. As such your brain is IN YOUR MIND, your body is IN YOUR MIND, everything is IN YOUR MIND. 

Now close your eyes.....notice nothing is OUTSIDE of your mind at anytime. Open them again. This means your POV is ABSOLUTE because nothing can be FOUND outside of it. Now the relative aspect comes into the fact that any person you communicate with or anything you perceive only has an identity in RELATION to you. So you are the absolute...and you CREATE relativity through your mind. Things like height, scale, time, weight, etc. Everything is always in RELATION to you. So you are both the ABSOLUTE and the RELATIVE.

This is what is being pointed too. Once you awaken to what this is....you realize...you are TOTALITY. 

Here are some videos that can help you with this if you struggle with visualization. SIT AND WATCH THIS FOR HOURS AND IT MAY START TO CLICK FOR YOU. If you are open to this information.

 

[Breakingthewall]

42 minutes ago, KatiesKarma said:

My current experience is Relative Truth

Here and now is the absolute truth, the existence, but your experience makes it seem relative. you have to dismantle the illusion of temporality that the mind creates and immerse yourself in the now. and eventually, if you let go everything, the now will manifest for what it really is. obviously everything is the absolute truth, hence the word absolute, there is nothing else. the thing is to realize it 

the problem is the concept "experience", which implies a self experiencing something, and that is precisely the appearance, the illusion

Edited August 22, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[WoodDragon]

No one will ever know in this life.

[Yimpa]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

In the end Truth is very simple, but your mind is so full of wrong ideas about it that you are all tangled up and confused.

 

[Princess Arabia]

3 hours ago, Razard86 said:

There are some practices you can do to understand what is meant by Reality is Infinite. Close your eyes....now imagine a road...walk that road. Notice....you can walk that road in your mind....forever. Now open your eyes....notice that when you close your eyes and open them, the screen you are seeing...is wider than your head. So your mind CANNOT be in your head. This means your mind....is the screen that you are viewing. As such your brain is IN YOUR MIND, your body is IN YOUR MIND, everything is IN YOUR MIND. 

Now close your eyes.....notice nothing is OUTSIDE of your mind at anytime. Open them again. This means your POV is ABSOLUTE because nothing can be FOUND outside of it. Now the relative aspect comes into the fact that any person you communicate with or anything you perceive only has an identity in RELATION to you. So you are the absolute...and you CREATE relativity through your mind. Things like height, scale, time, weight, etc. Everything is always in RELATION to you. So you are both the ABSOLUTE and the RELATIVE.

This is what is being pointed too. Once you awaken to what this is....you realize...you are TOTALITY. 

Here are some videos that can help you with this if you struggle with visualization. SIT AND WATCH THIS FOR HOURS AND IT MAY START TO CLICK FOR YOU. If you are open to this information.

 

That's funny because the video clip is similar to what I see if I sit for awhile with my eyes closed and concentrate on what I'm looking at while my eyes are closed. I noticed it one day and was amazed at what I was seeing, but I have to really concentrate on it. All sorts of visions appear, flashing lights that look like the video. It's very subtle but noticeable once you really see it. Amazing.

[Water by the River]

13 hours ago, KatiesKarma said:

Since Truth must be infinite (Infinity) you would have to be aware of infinity, All there is. You cannot do this because it is infinite. 

Infinity is not the same as infinite. Infinite = In-Finite. Not finite. Not measurable, nor any objective qualities. Szyper, Infinite Consciousness is a nice book on that topic, same as Dziuban, Consciousness is all.

Infinity on the other side is something else. It is a class of mathematical objects: There are several classes of Infinity, even differently sized Infinites, some larger than others (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor). Leo has nice videos on that. Infinity/Infinities (for example as worlds/realms/universes) are contained in in-finite consciousness, with in-finite consciousness as their essence.

The Absolute is Infinite Impersonal Empty Consciousness/Awareness, in nondual union with all its limitless manifestations/apperances arising within it.

In-finite consciousness. Or the abyss of Empty Impersonal Awareness/Consciousness, with no objective qualities (the eye can't see itself), but with the potential for Awareness. Your True Being. That can be realized as essence of onself, as essence of all of limitless reality, and at the core of every "other" sentient being. Normally it takes a long time of removing clouds of mistaken identity arisings covering ones essence.

Maybe that is a bit useful. Bon voyage!

Water by the River

 

[UnbornTao]

Genuine inquiry starts from scratch. It is an open investigation. Avoid making conclusions and speculating.

If it's not possible, why contemplate in the first place?

Realizing the absolute should be held as a real possibility for you. Apart from that, remain open and want to know it.

Edited August 25, 2023 by UnbornTao

[Inliytened1]

On 8/22/2023 at 1:33 AM, KatiesKarma said:

Since Truth must be infinite (Infinity) you would have to be aware of infinity, All there is. You cannot do this because it is infinite. 

 

You ARE Infinity.  You just don't realize it yet.  So you don't become aware of the Truth, you become it.  It's not separate from you to where the subject is you and the object is Truth.  Realizing Truth is the collapse of all duality - most importantly the subject and object. 

[SeaMonster]

On 8/22/2023 at 4:14 PM, Water by the River said:

The Absolute is Infinite Impersonal Empty Consciousness/Awareness, in nondual union with all its limitless manifestations/apperances arising within it.

In-finite consciousness. Or the abyss of Empty Impersonal Awareness/Consciousness, with no objective qualities (the eye can't see itself), but with the potential for Awareness. Your True Being. That can be realized as essence of onself, as essence of all of limitless reality, and at the core of every "other" sentient being. Normally it takes a long time of removing clouds of mistaken identity arisings covering ones essence.

Above endorsed 100%.

Your atheist friend is correct.  "There is falsehood in my teaching" seems like a strategic disavowal of responsibility, a disclaimer of sorts: buyer beware.

In other words: I won't tell you what the falsehood is, either because it is not in my interest to tell you or I believe in my own bullshit so I couldn't tell you even if I wanted to.

That's a problem of course.  But then what Leo does isn't spiritual teaching but SPIRITAINMENT.  Real spiritual teaching is BORING; it's just the same thing over and over (like the quote above.)  A lot of people just want to be entertained (and constant novelty is required for that.)

 

Edited August 23, 2023 by SeaMonster

[KatiesKarma]

19 hours ago, SeaMonster said:

Above endorsed 100%.

Your atheist friend is correct.  "There is falsehood in my teaching" seems like a strategic disavowal of responsibility, a disclaimer of sorts: buyer beware.

In other words: I won't tell you what the falsehood is, either because it is not in my interest to tell you or I believe in my own bullshit so I couldn't tell you even if I wanted to.

That's a problem of course.  But then what Leo does isn't spiritual teaching but SPIRITAINMENT.  Real spiritual teaching is BORING; it's just the same thing over and over (like the quote above.)  A lot of people just want to be entertained (and constant novelty is required for that.)

 

Exactly he blew my mind when he said "this guys full of shit" I was like "what, that is leo, he knows everything..."

[Inliytened1]

On 8/22/2023 at 3:14 PM, Water by the River said:

Infinity is not the same as infinite. Infinite = In-Finite. Not finite. Not measurable, nor any objective qualities. Szyper, Infinite Consciousness is a nice book on that topic, same as Dziuban, Consciousness is all.

Infinity on the other side is something else. It is a class of mathematical objects: There are several classes of Infinity, even differently sized Infinites, some larger than others (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor). Leo has nice videos on that. Infinity/Infinities (for example as worlds/realms/universes) are contained in in-finite consciousness, with in-finite consciousness as their essence.

The Absolute is Infinite Impersonal Empty Consciousness/Awareness, in nondual union with all its limitless manifestations/apperances arising within it.

In-finite consciousness. Or the abyss of Empty Impersonal Awareness/Consciousness, with no objective qualities (the eye can't see itself), but with the potential for Awareness. Your True Being. That can be realized as essence of onself, as essence of all of limitless reality, and at the core of every "other" sentient being. Normally it takes a long time of removing clouds of mistaken identity arisings covering ones essence.

Maybe that is a bit useful. Bon voyage!

Water by the River

 

Start speaking with your own words or you will be kicked out of here.  I'm tired of seeing the stuff you've picked up from books.  Speak from your own heart.   This is why you aren't Awake yet.  Because you got caught up in all the hoopla

 

[Water by the River]

4 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

On 22.8.2023 at 10:14 PM, Water by the River said:

Infinity is not the same as infinite. Infinite = In-Finite. Not finite. Not measurable, nor any objective qualities. Szyper, Infinite Consciousness is a nice book on that topic, same as Dziuban, Consciousness is all.

Infinity on the other side is something else. It is a class of mathematical objects: There are several classes of Infinity, even differently sized Infinites, some larger than others (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor). Leo has nice videos on that. Infinity/Infinities (for example as worlds/realms/universes) are contained in in-finite consciousness, with in-finite consciousness as their essence.

The Absolute is Infinite Impersonal Empty Consciousness/Awareness, in nondual union with all its limitless manifestations/apperances arising within it.

In-finite consciousness. Or the abyss of Empty Impersonal Awareness/Consciousness, with no objective qualities (the eye can't see itself), but with the potential for Awareness. Your True Being. That can be realized as essence of onself, as essence of all of limitless reality, and at the core of every "other" sentient being. Normally it takes a long time of removing clouds of mistaken identity arisings covering ones essence.

Maybe that is a bit useful. Bon voyage!

Water by the River

 

Start speaking with your own words or you will be kicked out of here.  I'm tired of seeing the stuff you've picked up from books.  Speak from your own heart.   This is why you aren't Awake yet.  Because you got caught up in all the hoopla

How do you know the way I write is not exactly the way I write from the heart? Maybe that is exactly my style, by personality, education and studies? (I know...   )

Luckily  the way how boundless, free and open my mindstream is is not defined by external evaluation.

Be happy you got your own Awakening without decade-long meditation training. Including intensive studies of finding the right meditation tradition/practice for oneself, and comparing the paths across traditions for doing that. Others have been not so lucky. All I write would have been tremendously helpful for me back 10 years ago, especially the sources/quotes and references to books and other authors.

The Tibetan Buddhists tend to avoid claiming and commenting on their realization, or that of others. They just say: The conduct with which one lives ones life, that is the best way to judge realization. Both at oneself and others. Life will point out with suffering any realization just claimed or imagined and not actualized.

Is there anything "technically" incorrect in what I write? Any statements that you don't agree on besides "speak more from the heart" or speak/write subjectively?

I agree with you on the value on writing/telling "from the heart". Yet, I also see the value of balancing that with the experiences of others, for example by quoting sources. 

And then finally, to quote a post from Soul: "Also, I'm not sure where you get the notion that you have any authority to determine what is or is not being awakened and who is or is not awakened. This isn't the first time you've said this to me and I suspect I'm not the only one you have said it to."

And concluding with the words of Soul: I hope we don't have to go through this rhetorical dance again.

Or one more dance & chuckle?

 

Water by the River

 

PS: Still awake just enough  

 

 

[Inliytened1]

On 8/25/2023 at 2:27 AM, Water by the River said:

How do you know the way I write is not exactly the way I write from the heart? Maybe that is exactly my style, by personality, education and studies? (I know...   )

Luckily  the way how boundless, free and open my mindstream is is not defined by external evaluation.

Be happy you got your own Awakening without decade-long meditation training. Including intensive studies of finding the right meditation tradition/practice for oneself, and comparing the paths across traditions for doing that. Others have been not so lucky. All I write would have been tremendously helpful for me back 10 years ago, especially the sources/quotes and references to books and other authors.

The Tibetan Buddhists tend to avoid claiming and commenting on their realization, or that of others. They just say: The conduct with which one lives ones life, that is the best way to judge realization. Both at oneself and others. Life will point out with suffering any realization just claimed or imagined and not actualized.

Is there anything "technically" incorrect in what I write? Any statements that you don't agree on besides "speak more from the heart" or speak/write subjectively?

I agree with you on the value on writing/telling "from the heart". Yet, I also see the value of balancing that with the experiences of others, for example by quoting sources. 

And then finally, to quote a post from Soul: "Also, I'm not sure where you get the notion that you have any authority to determine what is or is not being awakened and who is or is not awakened. This isn't the first time you've said this to me and I suspect I'm not the only one you have said it to."

And concluding with the words of Soul: I hope we don't have to go through this rhetorical dance again.

Or one more dance & chuckle?

 

Water by the River

 

PS: Still awake just enough  

 

 

I don't consider myself luckier than you.  My hard work wasn't done in the form of research and reading (although there was some).  My way was via suffering - and the wiring for enlightenment.   You - you may not have the natural wiring- but you have the other components.  You have the open mind and the open heart.  I bid you now,  put the brakes on the sourcing.   The framework is there and has been laid.  Now - the time is to sit in direct presence.  In actuality. Sit there and sit there for as long as it takes.  Now is where the rubber meets the road.  Now is where concept takes a seat and spirituality, true spirituality, not all the writings, comes in.  That is where mysticism lies.  It lies not in your books - but it does lie in actuality.  Sit and dwell within that.  How many hours have you put there? Has it been the same as your studies?  

Regarding Soul - he's grown a lot - I see it in his posts.  And I respect that.   But yes - I have two decades on him - so i can be the judge of who is awake.  You can choose to disagree with the judge, as can he.  But I didn't see him try and change the verdict.  I also feel awakening doesn't make you special or better.   I want it for you because it is a miracle - for no other reason.  But you must take your head out of the sand for that.

Edited August 27, 2023 by Inliytened1

[Water by the River]

9 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

I don't consider myself luckier than you.  My hard work wasn't done in the form of research and reading (although there was some).  My way was via suffering - and the wiring for enlightenment.   You - you may not have the natural wiring- but you have the other components.  You have the open mind and the open heart.  I bid you now,  put the brakes on the sourcing.   The framework is there and has been laid.  Now - the time is to sit in direct presence.  In actuality. Sit there and sit there for as long as it takes.  Now is where the rubber meets the road.  Now is where concept takes a seat and spirituality, true spirituality, not all the writings, comes in.  That is where mysticism lies.  It lies not in your books - but it does lie in actuality.  Sit and dwell within that.  How many hours have you put there? Has it been the same as your studies?  

Regarding Soul - he's grown a lot - I see it in his posts.  And I respect that.   But yes - I have two decades on him - so i can be the judge of who is awake.  You can choose to disagree with the judge, as can he.  But I didn't see him try and change the verdict.  I also feel awakening doesn't make you special or better.   I want it for you because it is a miracle - for no other reason.  But you must take your head out of the sand for that.

I know you mean well. And from your writings (concerning waking up and the Absolute/Being) and behaviour (the deeper loving elements that shine through) you are enlightened in my perspective. And luckily you are here in this forum, holding up the flag of real Enlightenment and not just some preliminary awakenings, or even worse: just mere conceptual convictions/belief-systems. It would be a much darker place without you.

But Enlightenment doesn't stop the Enlightened Ones to make errors in the relative realm (for example in drastic cases: Zen at war, Adi Da cult, endless list). Your judging of Awakening based on writings is at least in some cases not possible. In most cases one can see fast who knows what one is writing/talking about, and who doesn't. But it is not possible in all cases.

Meditation time? Didn't count, but well over 10.000 hours in nearly 20 years. In the beginning mainly sitting, but soon taking it off the pillow with Mahamudra/Dzogchen. And the practice and being in these states continues, with a (much) higher focus and priority than studies/books. Just because it is the most beautiful and blissful activity I can engage in. So here we align also. As actually in nearly all points as soon as we actually start exchanging perspectives, and assumptions get reduced.

Actual practice vs. books/theory: It was clear for me from very early on that only (!) meditation time counts, and time in certain awakened states. And the reading and books are just for enabling that, and for choosing the right system, and then actually practicing/doing it. That is why the main message in many posts I wrote is: practice. I read Ken Wilber when starting with all of that, and that is one  of his main messages: Actual practice transforms, theory does not.

You are unshakable in your True Essence and Being because you are in contact with That (or better the old "separate-you" has died into That) which is unmistaken always here and always true and never can change. You don't need any external validation on THAT. As I have written severeal times: Awake enough also here on this side to communicate from That and not need any external validation. No sources, no books, no authorities, no nothing required. But I think it makes sense to argue and debate ones perspective with what humanity has already tried, experienced and then also summarized in certain sources/traditions/practice systems.

It flatters me that you assume I am smart enough to write the stuff I write without certain Awakenings and Realizations. I can assure you, I am not that smart.

It is not that I just copy & paste this theory/books/sources without having the releveant experiences/awakenings to speak authentically from that. I agree that would be one of the worst, strange and harming things that one could do. We align in that attitude because I also debated the most obvious (and most narcissistic Ego=God cases) of that endeavour also.

And my expression of THAT is different than yours, because It runs through my relative self and form, same as it does for you. 

You write you had the "wiring for Enlightenment". I agree. Most of us don't have it in such degree (including myself), and need effective views and practice-systems, and lots of practice. I believe that influences the way I write, on what, and how.

I expect that I will tend to reduce my engagement in the "more-awakened-than-thou" dances & chuckles, because as written before I consider that at some point as some kind of "less-than-beneficial-activity" for everyone involved.

Like I wrote many times, the best indicator for awakening is the conduct with which one lives ones life. The openness, love, non-suffering and grace that embodied awake Truth can enable. That shows more than anything else how much Truth has permeated the relative self.

And having said that: I will speak more from the heart (although I sometimes tend to feel "ego-show-starts-here" doing that), but grant me some quoting/sources without falling out of grace in your perspective.

Water by the River

Edited August 27, 2023 by Water by the River

[Breakingthewall]

3 hours ago, Water by the River said:

But Enlightenment doesn't stop the Enlightened Ones to make errors in the relative realm (for example in drastic cases: Zen at war,

On 24/8/2023 at 8:31 PM, KatiesKarma said:

 

Why war is worse than peace if life is basically war? Life wants war, needs war to evolve. preferring peace to war is human bias. life loves war

[Water by the River]

7 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Why war is worse than peace if life is basically war? Life wants war, needs war to evolve. preferring peace to war is human bias. life loves war

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_at_War

Because nationalistic war causes suffering and is not done because of love for the whole but only for a part, if at all.