Women this men this bla bla bla bla bla bla

[Sugarcoat]

2 hours ago, TheCloud said:

@Sugarcoat Another way to define external and internal as I'm using it is "others" and "self".  Ultimately the difference between the two is arbitrary.  When a neuron on the left side of my brain communicates with one on the right side through ion channel impulses we call that my self, and when a neuron in my brain communicates with a neuron in your brain through text over the internet we call that communicating with others.  However, setting aside differences in the speed, bandwidth, and fidelity of the signal, the fact of neurons communicating is identical.  The neuron itself doesn't know the difference;  it just sends and receives according to its nature.

 

I think that the ultimate perspective is to erase the imagined difference, to perceive others as our self and our self as others.  That doesn't mean that our processes of communication between your neurons and mine will change, and it probably won't change how some people are more externally active and some more internally contemplative, but I believe the difference in how we regard each other and ourselves would be substantial.  I'm not claiming to have achieved this state of unity, I only believe that it is possible and worthy of achieving.

@TheCloud

mm that’s what how I would define it too from my experience. 

Even if there might not be an ~actual~ difference between others and self, or between the neural connections (would disagree about the neurons here hehe) , doesn’t change that there is an~experienced~ difference. 

now you probably agree with this. 

So for me, when people talk about “absolute truths” like that, since it doesn’t connect to my experience  - it feels pointless to talk about usually.
As I tend to contemplate things that move my experience, or connect to it somehow. 
maybe it does so for you tho..

It also connects to one’s desires. For me I don’t really have a desire to eradicate this sense of self and other (at least not consciously, although one could say this is where things are seemingly going anyways), as it isn’t connected to suffering ~per se~ , although it can be.
 

it seems to me that when one wants something, there is usually some mental idea associated with how it would be. So why you want it may I ask?

I like to think that we want to have sense of self and other in certain ways, for example man and woman attraction . A sort of “presence “ 
 

 

Lastly. I don’t know if you have had “awakening experiences” or something of that sort. But I had this permanent shift (if it’s not illegal to say such things about oneself here) . And I’ve been trying to understand the difference. 
one could say, before there was a sense of self that was bound to a particular mind pattern. Suffering was connected to this. Then when the shift happened i was released from this mind pattern permanently. So no longer bound to the mind. But it was not the end of sense of self altogether, it’s just not ~bound~ to that mind and it’s fixed patterns anymore. So no suffering in the same way as before. Everything is freed up .  Not saying this is that unity you talk about tho, just saying to show another perspective on this 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 27, 2023 by Sugarcoat

[Ajax]

1 hour ago, Sugarcoat said:

Lastly. I don’t know if you have had “awakening experiences” or something of that sort. But I had this permanent shift (if it’s not illegal to say such things about oneself here) . And I’ve been trying to understand the difference. 
one could say, before there was a sense of self that was bound to a particular mind pattern. Suffering was connected to this. Then when the shift happened i was released from this mind pattern permanently. So no longer bound to the mind. But it was not the end of sense of self altogether, it’s just not ~bound~ to that mind and it’s fixed patterns anymore. So no suffering in the same way as before. Everything is freed up .  Not saying this is that unity you talk about tho, just saying to show another perspective on this 

I guess I could be called an external introvert.  So, I don't really have the same experience of internal thoughts. Rather, they are more like something outside of location and time. So, I have difficulty conceptualizing internal... however, I do believe I understood what you said. 

However, I am interested in what you are saying about the mind pattern.  Is this a self-repeating stream of thoughts? Or is it like a stream of consciousness? Or is it very linear and logical like a person would hear in a classroom or lecture of some sort. Or is it conclusions made from previous memories/experiences?  Is it conscious conclusions. Or does it happen quite automatically?

Sorry for all the questions. I could literally come up with hundreds of of questions about mind patterns. 

I guess what I really want to know is ... What it is it like to have a mind-shift for you? Walk me through the process.

Thank you for being so open and communicative! It is so wonderful to have insightful and self-aware people to talk to!

[TheCloud]

5 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

@TheCloud

mm that’s what how I would define it too from my experience. 

Even if there might not be an ~actual~ difference between others and self, or between the neural connections (would disagree about the neurons here hehe) , doesn’t change that there is an~experienced~ difference. 

now you probably agree with this. 

So for me, when people talk about “absolute truths” like that, since it doesn’t connect to my experience  - it feels pointless to talk about usually.
As I tend to contemplate things that move my experience, or connect to it somehow. 
maybe it does so for you tho..

It also connects to one’s desires. For me I don’t really have a desire to eradicate this sense of self and other (at least not consciously, although one could say this is where things are seemingly going anyways), as it isn’t connected to suffering ~per se~ , although it can be.

Rather than eradicating the sense of self and other, I think it's more like embracing both equally without barriers.  On the contrary, what I suspect is that the harder the division that remains between the two, more that one side seeks to exclude and eradicate the influence of the other.  The determination to ignore internal matters (which is more often the case in people who show lower levels of awareness or consciousness), and the determination to be driven exclusively by internal matters (which I think is more common among people who are just discovering how to expand their consciousness or awareness), will both inevitably run into irresolvable issues.

 

I do agree that there is a difference in how we experience ourself compared to others.  It's not as if dissolving a psychological barrier will make it possible to literally experience being another person while also being yourself.  I just think that we're fooled by the fact that we can't see through one another's eyes into believing that the conceptual division between ourselves and others is also something factual.

 

It can't be helped if none of this connects to your experience, though.  I don't think I know enough about you to give a more practical explanation of what I'm aiming to explain.  If you haven't hit your limit in perfecting your internal self, there might not even be a reason for you to care.

 

6 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

it seems to me that when one wants something, there is usually some mental idea associated with how it would be. So why you want it may I ask?

I like to think that we want to have sense of self and other in certain ways, for example man and woman attraction . A sort of “presence “

I agree that the sense of division between self and other, such as in your given example of sexual attraction, can be a source of pleasure or excitement.  My goal is to perceive the truth more clearly, not to obscure it in favor of simplistic ideals or pet theories.  The truth is that our experience of our own actions is vastly different from our experience of other's actions, in ways that can't simply be said to be bad or good.  Embracing those differences is, I believe, a part of my pursuit of the truth.

 

7 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

Lastly. I don’t know if you have had “awakening experiences” or something of that sort. But I had this permanent shift (if it’s not illegal to say such things about oneself here) . And I’ve been trying to understand the difference. 
one could say, before there was a sense of self that was bound to a particular mind pattern. Suffering was connected to this. Then when the shift happened i was released from this mind pattern permanently. So no longer bound to the mind. But it was not the end of sense of self altogether, it’s just not ~bound~ to that mind and it’s fixed patterns anymore. So no suffering in the same way as before. Everything is freed up .  Not saying this is that unity you talk about tho, just saying to show another perspective on this

I've not had an experience quite like that, where there was a sudden and permanent shift.  It sounds rather extraordinary.  I do understand that epiphanies of any kind require an adjustment period, where old habits and thought patterns are questioned and modified and discarded.  My epiphanies have been slower processes than yours, with adjustment periods measuring in years.

 

I am curious as to how what you're describing might relate to what I've been discussing;  it certainly sounds as if there could be a connection, especially where you describe your sense of self as having become unbound to your mind and its fixed patterns.  I get the feeling that you're not quite used to it yet, and are exploring new ways of describing what you've experienced.  I'm not really interested in pushing some kind of unity agenda.  I mostly brought it up to get a clearer idea of where you're at and what kind of experience you're having to have started this thread.  Of course, I do believe in what I'm saying, it's only that I don't particularly care whether you end up believing it as well.

[PurpleTree]

I agree it’s like those dumb old standup jokes

”hey guys have you ever noticed, white guys dance like this mimimimi but black guys they dance like this mumumumu”

or maybe you were talking about something entirely different sorry i just skim through posts ?

[Sugarcoat]

7 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

I agree it’s like those dumb old standup jokes

”hey guys have you ever noticed, white guys dance like this mimimimi but black guys they dance like this mumumumu”

or maybe you were talking about something entirely different sorry i just skim through posts ?

no worries. Pretty much all I see humans doing falls under this category so you damn right ?

Edited August 29, 2023 by Sugarcoat

[Sugarcoat]

On 2023-08-28 at 0:11 AM, Ajax said:

I guess I could be called an external introvert.  So, I don't really have the same experience of internal thoughts. Rather, they are more like something outside of location and time. So, I have difficulty conceptualizing internal... however, I do believe I understood what you said.

haahha whaat. I do relate to thoughts being seemingly outside of location and time in a way but still internal. Internal meaning mind, emotions, bodily sensations , those things you are aware of  and others arent. Things connected to you/your body. 

 

On 2023-08-28 at 0:11 AM, Ajax said:

However, I am interested in what you are saying about the mind pattern.  Is this a self-repeating stream of thoughts? Or is it like a stream of consciousness? Or is it very linear and logical like a person would hear in a classroom or lecture of some sort. Or is it conclusions made from previous memories/experiences?  Is it conscious conclusions. Or does it happen quite automatically?

Sorry for all the questions. I could literally come up with hundreds of of questions about mind patterns. 

I guess what I really want to know is ... What it is it like to have a mind-shift for you? Walk me through the process.

Thank you for being so open and communicative! It is so wonderful to have insightful and self-aware people to talk to!

no problem!  thats what this forum is for !

the mind is damn tricky i wonder about it too a lot 

I had many minor shifts prior to the, what i would call awakening, which was the major one. 

In particular towards the last period before the awakening I experienced that my mind was dominating my reality. It felt like my mind was my only sense of grasp on reality. I had this very intense self-repeating, loopy stream of thoughts a lot of the time. When I followed it, it was projected out and it was like my mind was no longer just in my head, but all over as a filter on reality.

 What i mean is, imagine you have an idea of what you need to do to get closer to what you want.

This idea is contained within this stream of thoughts in your head. Then when you ~follow~ this thought, by doing the thing it shows you, suddenly this thought is no longer in your head as potential, it is projected outwardly and acts as a mental filter on reality.

The more i followed my mind, the more i strenghtened it, and i was stuck in attachment to it. Quite literally, my sense of self and grounding in reality was bound to it.

then the shift. I was permantently released from my mind. It was almost visual too when it happened, like having a filter on your eyes (my mind) and then you get pulled back and separated from this filter. It was not the end of the mind, or sense of self altogether, but it seemed there was this identification/attachment to this particual pattern of mind i talked about. So like a sense of self attached to a limited aspect of the mind, holding on for dear life. So ironically the mind is also constricted by this identification, because the identification ties itself to this mind and its forced to stay in a certain way and is very repetitive. im guessing maybe this is why a lot of people stay the same seemingly? Perhaps a neurological pattern tied to a sense of self, because most people seem to have a certain way of operating, a pattern that is their default. 

this is very abstract but im trying to understand it myself on a very general level, hope its not too hard to get a sense of

[Ajax]

6 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

haahha whaat. I do relate to thoughts being seemingly outside of location and time in a way but still internal. Internal meaning mind, emotions, bodily sensations , those things you are aware of  and others arent. Things connected to you/your body. 

 

no problem!  thats what this forum is for !

the mind is damn tricky i wonder about it too a lot 

I had many minor shifts prior to the, what i would call awakening, which was the major one. 

In particular towards the last period before the awakening I experienced that my mind was dominating my reality. It felt like my mind was my only sense of grasp on reality. I had this very intense self-repeating, loopy stream of thoughts a lot of the time. When I followed it, it was projected out and it was like my mind was no longer just in my head, but all over as a filter on reality.

 What i mean is, imagine you have an idea of what you need to do to get closer to what you want.

This idea is contained within this stream of thoughts in your head. Then when you ~follow~ this thought, by doing the thing it shows you, suddenly this thought is no longer in your head as potential, it is projected outwardly and acts as a mental filter on reality.

The more i followed my mind, the more i strenghtened it, and i was stuck in attachment to it. Quite literally, my sense of self and grounding in reality was bound to it.

then the shift. I was permantently released from my mind. It was almost visual too when it happened, like having a filter on your eyes (my mind) and then you get pulled back and separated from this filter. It was not the end of the mind, or sense of self altogether, but it seemed there was this identification/attachment to this particual pattern of mind i talked about. So like a sense of self attached to a limited aspect of the mind, holding on for dear life. So ironically the mind is also constricted by this identification, because the identification ties itself to this mind and its forced to stay in a certain way and is very repetitive. im guessing maybe this is why a lot of people stay the same seemingly? Perhaps a neurological pattern tied to a sense of self, because most people seem to have a certain way of operating, a pattern that is their default. 

this is very abstract but im trying to understand it myself on a very general level, hope its not too hard to get a sense of

That is marvelous. Yes, this makes a lot of sense. Thank you so much for sharing with me. Funny thing is that one Idea can have thousands of meanings! You explained yourself masterfully! These are the kind of ideas that I enjoy and relish!

LOVE

[Sugarcoat]

5 hours ago, Ajax said:

That is marvelous. Yes, this makes a lot of sense. Thank you so much for sharing with me. Funny thing is that one Idea can have thousands of meanings! You explained yourself masterfully! These are the kind of ideas that I enjoy and relish!

LOVE

Thank you Ajax!!

[Sugarcoat]

On 2023-08-28 at 5:49 AM, TheCloud said:

Rather than eradicating the sense of self and other, I think it's more like embracing both equally without barriers.  On the contrary, what I suspect is that the harder the division that remains between the two, more that one side seeks to exclude and eradicate the influence of the other.  The determination to ignore internal matters (which is more often the case in people who show lower levels of awareness or consciousness), and the determination to be driven exclusively by internal matters (which I think is more common among people who are just discovering how to expand their consciousness or awareness), will both inevitably run into irresolvable issues.

 I have never really dealt with anything other than my inside. So its not about conflict between internal and external, all the conflict has happened within me.  Is what i am saying. And this is not purely a mindset, its what my experience has been pretty much  all my life. 

interestingly enough, it seems to me that most people are moving in the general trajectory of seeing how more and more of their conflict is internal. 

"embracing both equally without barriers". so you tryna dissolve that barrier? isnt that barrier internal too? trying to not have any problem with the outside? isnt the problem simply a reaction happening internally so once again just dealing with your internal? trying to embrace your internal? isnt this also internal ?

interesting take you have nonetheless

On 2023-08-28 at 5:49 AM, TheCloud said:

I do agree that there is a difference in how we experience ourself compared to others.  It's not as if dissolving a psychological barrier will make it possible to literally experience being another person while also being yourself.  I just think that we're fooled by the fact that we can't see through one another's eyes into believing that the conceptual division between ourselves and others is also something factual.

yes id say that too. Id just add that the sense of self and other seems to be deeper than psychological, like energy, presence. Maybe possible for that to die also, then its about what one is personally aiming for. 

 

On 2023-08-28 at 5:49 AM, TheCloud said:

It can't be helped if none of this connects to your experience, though.  I don't think I know enough about you to give a more practical explanation of what I'm aiming to explain.  If you haven't hit your limit in perfecting your internal self, there might not even be a reason for you to care.

yes you have a point here. Theres a difference between understanding on an very abstract level vs how it would look in a persons life, the processes they go through etc. I bet that what youre saying reflects something in your personal experience. Even if someone doesnt get it,  there is something special that happens within us when we try to put structure to things in words, I find.

On 2023-08-28 at 5:49 AM, TheCloud said:

I agree that the sense of division between self and other, such as in your given example of sexual attraction, can be a source of pleasure or excitement.  My goal is to perceive the truth more clearly, not to obscure it in favor of simplistic ideals or pet theories.  The truth is that our experience of our own actions is vastly different from our experience of other's actions, in ways that can't simply be said to be bad or good.  Embracing those differences is, I believe, a part of my pursuit of the truth

mm i can see. When you mean embracing those differences, you mean that youve had problems with them or? Like being bothered by feeling "stuck" in your persepctive or something? im just asking you can answer what u want

On 2023-08-28 at 5:49 AM, TheCloud said:

I've not had an experience quite like that, where there was a sudden and permanent shift.  It sounds rather extraordinary.  I do understand that epiphanies of any kind require an adjustment period, where old habits and thought patterns are questioned and modified and discarded.  My epiphanies have been slower processes than yours, with adjustment periods measuring in years.

It was extrodinary, yet at the same time "subtle" and nothing special. 

So I have some theories.

I believe everyone is going through this process of awakening in their way and pace. A sort of unraveling. This process seems internal for me. So the reason it happens faster for one person and slower for someone else depends on how much they go in vs out. So most people are kind of stable in something in between, they look to both inside and outside. Since it is an internal process, the more you look to the inside the faster. Something like that.

On 2023-08-28 at 5:49 AM, TheCloud said:

I am curious as to how what you're describing might relate to what I've been discussing;  it certainly sounds as if there could be a connection, especially where you describe your sense of self as having become unbound to your mind and its fixed patterns.  I get the feeling that you're not quite used to it yet, and are exploring new ways of describing what you've experienced.  I'm not really interested in pushing some kind of unity agenda.  I mostly brought it up to get a clearer idea of where you're at and what kind of experience you're having to have started this thread.  Of course, I do believe in what I'm saying, it's only that I don't particularly care whether you end up believing it as well.

yes it could because sometimes we just explain things differently but there migght be more parallels than it seems. 

yes the way one descrbibes and understands ones own expeirenes can always evolve

no you dont give that vibe of pushing anything and that is great that you dont care if i belive it or not!

for me its not so much about belief thats another thing i dont really get about people this obsession with what they believe or dont believe (not saying for you i mean people in general here)