How is intelligence and size of the brain interlinked?

[Jannes]

There are many very intelligent animals on earth like parrots or ravens who have a small brain and pretty dumb animals with a big brain like crocodiles or ostriches. My question is, is it possible in theory to have a very very intelligent creature with a very small size? Analogous to how old computers are often huge but have relatively very little power and nowadays devices like the smartphone have x100 that power with :100 the size. I am asking because that could be a solution for climate change. With gene manipulation we could simply make ourselves shrink a shitton so we have a lot more resources on earth. 

[Schizophonia]

Food is not a big problem for the environment

[Carl-Richard]

Shrink ourselves so that we'll get predated on by ravens, seagulls and yellow jackets ?

I think if you take an existing creature and reduce its size, it will be less intelligent. But that doesn't mean you can't have a different creature of a smaller size which is more intelligent.

[Jannes]

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

Shrink ourselves so that we'll get predated on by ravens, seagulls and yellow jackets ?

We would make a new artificial environment just like we did it today. With technology we could still dominate earth no problem. You could still drive a tank with tiny fingers. Actually our potential might even increase. There are limitations to size from gravity. The speed of a train in its current size is limited but if we shrink ourselves, relatively speaking we can drive much faster. Imagine being the size of an ant and driving with a Japanese speed train. And we would be hyper efficient. Imagine how easy it is to feed everybody. We would have a tier 2 society easily. 

That would be such a great Disney movie idea, so much world building potential. 

Quote

I think if you take an existing creature and reduce its size, it will be less intelligent. But that doesn't mean you can't have a different creature of a smaller size which is more intelligent.

Interesting thought. 

I am no biologist, perhaps that's true. 

There are many changes you have to do when you want to change to a mouse or even ant size, cause gravity hits different and other factors. 

Edited August 19, 2023 by Jannes

[Jannes]

4 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Food is not a big problem for the environment

Food sourcing is not the only factor but a significant one. But when we shrink in size I think all other environment factor become better also. We dont use up as much energy to drive with a car for example cause we will have tiny ones that use up less energy. 

[Jannes]

Movie idea:

It's the year 2300. Through abusing our environment too much climate change got enough momentum that it whipped out most of the human population on earth, except for a few thousands who barely hang on but they know humanity is doomed for good. Because they have nothing better to do they create a new intelligent small species which will be their successor. A mix of strong melancholic episodes with reflexions what humanity is and where it went wrong (maybe with film material of humanity for the new species and lots of material of the greatest scientific achievements, the biggest novels, the best philosophies...) opened with intense feelings of unconditional love in the creation process of the new species.

Edited August 19, 2023 by Jannes

[Jannes]

Or we create another species so that the other species saves our ass. The human mind is worthy as it is probably. Especially for creatures with other types of intelligence. So we could co-exist. 

Edited August 19, 2023 by Jannes

[effortlesslumen]

9 hours ago, Jannes said:

There are many very intelligent animals on earth like parrots or ravens who have a small brain and pretty dumb animals with a big brain like crocodiles or ostriches. My question is, is it possible in theory to have a very very intelligent creature with a very small size? Analogous to how old computers are often huge but have relatively very little power and nowadays devices like the smartphone have x100 that power with :100 the size. I am asking because that could be a solution for climate change. With gene manipulation we could simply make ourselves shrink a shitton so we have a lot more resources on earth. 

In regard of the brain: It depends more one density and the  number  of neurons and how they are interlinked and connect to each other. Or better to say how they assamble to each other i think. Brains a very unique and i dont think the size ressembles the actual usability. So i think shrinking is not a problem unless you go smaller than the neurons in the brain if this is even a thing. 

Also i think shrinking is not a good idea. 

 

[Jannes]

48 minutes ago, effortlesslumen said:

In regard of the brain: It depends more one density and the  number  of neurons and how they are interlinked and connect to each other. Or better to say how they assamble to each other i think. Brains a very unique and i dont think the size ressembles the actual usability. So i think shrinking is not a problem unless you go smaller than the neurons in the brain if this is even a thing. 

Thanks!

48 minutes ago, effortlesslumen said:

Also i think shrinking is not a good idea. 

why?

[Carl-Richard]

7 hours ago, Jannes said:

We would make a new artificial environment just like we did it today. With technology we could still dominate earth no problem. You could still drive a tank with tiny fingers. Actually our potential might even increase. There are limitations to size from gravity. The speed of a train in its current size is limited but if we shrink ourselves, relatively speaking we can drive much faster. Imagine being the size of an ant and driving with a Japanese speed train. And we would be hyper efficient. Imagine how easy it is to feed everybody. We would have a tier 2 society easily. 

What — you're just gonna ban insects, birds, everything that isn't human, from interacting with humans? That is probably practically impossible unless you want us to live in Matrix pods or caves underground. Besides, dominating the entire Earth this way takes more resources than whatever we got going on now, so if your concern is reducing resource expenditure or environmental disaster, maybe leave the bugs alone.

[Carl-Richard]

8 hours ago, Jannes said:

Interesting thought. 

I am no biologist, perhaps that's true. 

Different evolutionary niches produce different levels and types of intelligences. But also, brain size generally correlates with intelligence, even within our own species.

 

8 hours ago, Jannes said:

There are many changes you have to do when you want to change to a mouse or even ant size, cause gravity hits different and other factors. 

Yeah, and how few neurons can you have before you become functionally retarded? How small can an individual neuron be before complicated things like ion channels (which certainly can't be infinitely small in order to work) take up too much space relative to other structures? What if the genes that code for small size also make you more prone to certain diseases or other unwanted things? It's not easy to play God when your creation is a super complex system.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Leo Gura]

There are much better solutions to climate change than this wacky idea.

I doubt crocodiles have big brains.

It's not simply a matter of size, it's about size in the right parts.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Phil King]

Absolutely bizarre idea. If humanity develops shrink ray technology before sustainable energy sources, we have our priorities fucked lmao

[Sandhu]

What an absurd idea!

[Girzo]

Big animals have big brains because muscles require some brain to operate, so they have big parts of brains that are dedicated to coordinating muscles. They have minuscule parts of brain that are responsible for intelligence in humans.

[Jannes]

9 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

What — you're just gonna ban insects, birds, everything that isn't human, from interacting with humans? That is probably practically impossible unless you want us to live in Matrix pods or caves underground. Besides, dominating the entire Earth this way takes more resources than whatever we got going on now, so if your concern is reducing resource expenditure or environmental disaster, maybe leave the bugs alone.

Exactly. Look at big cities, we already killed almost everything there that isnt human so it wouldn't be a huge step. You could probably design nets that keep bigger animals away so we can enjoy the sky. Yes it might take up more resources per cubic meters to create a safe environment but we would need way less place in terms of surface but also in terms of height. A human building that has place for 1 human could potentially have place for 100 shrunken creature if they are 1/10 of the size. This way we could just leave giant nature reserve on earth and would still have way more place on earth.

[Jannes]

9 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Different evolutionary niches produce different levels and types of intelligences. But also, brain size generally correlates with intelligence, even within our own species.

Are you sure? You generally become bigger when you have a good upbringing. And a good upbringing generally comes with better education. And better education produces more intelligence. 

She has a masters degree in English literature so she must have at least a decent iq. Thats what inspired my thought actually. She already seems functional, if we breed for that on purpose and also use genetic engineering we could really create something I think. 

9 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Yeah, and how few neurons can you have before you become functionally retarded? How small can an individual neuron be before complicated things like ion channels (which certainly can't be infinitely small in order to work) take up too much space relative to other structures? What if the genes that code for small size also make you more prone to certain diseases or other unwanted things? It's not easy to play God when your creation is a super complex system.

Idk. but also the bigger the system the more surface there is to attack it. Otherwise kids would all die from every disease with their small size. 

I agree it's not straightforward at all though. But it could potentially work. 

[Carl-Richard]

7 minutes ago, Jannes said:

Are you sure? You generally become bigger when you have a good upbringing. And a good upbringing generally comes with better education. And better education produces more intelligence.

Scientists know very well how to control for these things. Still, I said "generally". I'm not referring to any specific study.

 

10 minutes ago, Jannes said:

She has a masters degree in English literature so she must have at least a decent iq. Thats what inspired my thought actually. She already seems functional, if we breed for that on purpose and also use genetic engineering we could really create something I think.

Maybe she could've had a PhD in mathematics if she wasn't small. You don't know that

[Jannes]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

There are much better solutions to climate change than this wacky idea.

Sure but it's an option. Can be plan z buts its an option in the toolbox. 

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I doubt crocodiles have big brains.

You are right actually, most birds have bigger brains then crocodiles..

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It's not simply a matter of size, it's about size in the right parts.

Yes but also shape. The cerebral cortex is strongly folded which gives it more surface for neural connections. If you apply math here a little I think you could really get a lot out of little volume. 

[Jannes]

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

Scientists know very well how to control for these things. Still, I said "generally". I'm not referring to any specific study.

Oh okay, perhaps then. 

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

Maybe she could've had a PhD in mathematics if she wasn't small. You don't know that

True, that's possible, it's also possible that it would have zero effect. 

But it does show for sure that you can have above intelligence in a tiny body.