Is free speech actually a good thing?

[The Redeemer]

Why should anyone be allowed to express feelings of hatred towards a minority group for example? What good does this do.

Edited August 13, 2023 by The Redeemer

[Ajax]

Un Declaration of Rights

"Article 1

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood." (Should include sisterhood.)

 

"Article 7

All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination."

Anti-feminists and Feminist and many activist and and law enforcement all frequently speak and act with discrimination.

People, including myself are a little too tolerant of discrimination. Free Speech is the main weapon we have to confront discrimination.

Discrimination is a criminal behavior and people, including myself are too cowardly to attack it(speak out) as it shows up. We don't want to deal with confrontation. Especially with friends and loved ones.

The key thing is to always do so with the understanding and practice of reason and conscience in the spirit of brotherhood and sisterhood. Or in other words act with love not hatred.

We are all vulnerable to discrimination and behave with discrimination sometimes, which means we act in a criminal way. It is important to bear this in mind when you wrathfully condemn another.

There is such a thing as conscious confrontation.

Give up Free Speech and you give up the ability to speak up against criminal behavior from people and the government.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Ajax

[Recursoinominado]

1 hour ago, The Redeemer said:

Why should anyone be allowed to express feelings of hatred towards a minority group for example? What good does this do.

It shouldn't.

All mass atrocities were preceded by hate speech.

[Raze]

4 hours ago, Recursoinominado said:

It shouldn't.

All mass atrocities were preceded by hate speech.

Actually they were preceded by censorship of the oppositions speech 

[The Redeemer]

47 minutes ago, Recursoinominado said:

It shouldn't.

All mass atrocities were preceded by hate speech.

Exactly, let's abolish free speech.

[Recursoinominado]

6 minutes ago, The Redeemer said:

Exactly, let's abolish free speech.

Just put limits and consequences to it.

 

[Recursoinominado]

23 minutes ago, Raze said:

Actually they were preceded by censorship of the oppositions speech 

When the hate speech crowd got strong enough through... hate speech.

[Ajax]

34 minutes ago, Recursoinominado said:

Just put limits and consequences to it.

 

What about popular discrimination like male privilege or white privilege?

What about Jewish privilege and Asian privilege? Many successful people of those ethnicities have the advantage of a strong family unit and emphasis on education and business.

Why not eliminate the idea of privilege?  Many males are not so "privileged" and the few who do "make it" have to go through a great deal of suffering and pain have to feel demonized by the label "privileged"

When the label of privileged is not true... It becomes hate speech, it's discrimination. Yet many people agree with this term. What limits and consequences should you put on that kind of speech when it is in alignment of popular opinion?

This isn't an argument, I'm looking for actual understanding and solutions.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Ajax

[Recursoinominado]

28 minutes ago, Ajax said:

What about popular discrimination like male privilege or white privilege?

Well, historically, white males have done unbelievably bad things when left unchecked. Hint: nazism.

Also, white males are still the most powerful group, so, the "discrimination" doesn't carry the same weight as discrimination against a gay black woman, for example.

32 minutes ago, Ajax said:

What about Jewish privilege and Asian privilege? Many successful people of those ethnicities have the advantage of a strong family unit and emphasis on education and business.

Good for them.

32 minutes ago, Ajax said:

Why not eliminate the idea of privilege?

Why not close our eyes and pretend problems don't exist?

33 minutes ago, Ajax said:

Many males are not so "privileged" and the few who do "make it" have to go through a great deal of suffering and pain have to feel demonized by the label "privileged"

Privilege doesn't exist in a vacuum, you have to compare it with something. When you compare with other groups, white males have it easier, which isn't the same as they have an easy life.

36 minutes ago, Ajax said:

When the label of privileged is not true...

It is mostly true, you just don't see it or refuse to admit. 

37 minutes ago, Ajax said:

It becomes hate speech, it's discrimination. Yet many people agree with this term. What limits and consequences should you put on that kind of speech when it is in alignment of popular opinion?

Well, what are the chances that white males are in danger from said "discrimination"? From who? Blue-haired liberal women?

Now think of the danger when white males come together to hate some group. Hint: nazism.

 

[The Redeemer]

1 hour ago, Recursoinominado said:

Just put limits and consequences to it.

 

I should have rephrased that statement. I meant all hate speech.

[Ajax]

2 hours ago, Recursoinominado said:

Well, historically, white males have done unbelievably bad things when left unchecked. Hint: nazism.

Also, white males are still the most powerful group, so, the "discrimination" doesn't carry the same weight as discrimination against a gay black woman, for example.

Good for them.

Why not close our eyes and pretend problems don't exist?

Privilege doesn't exist in a vacuum, you have to compare it with something. When you compare with other groups, white males have it easier, which isn't the same as they have an easy life.

It is mostly true, you just don't see it or refuse to admit. 

Well, what are the chances that white males are in danger from said "discrimination"? From who? Blue-haired liberal women?

Now think of the danger when white males come together to hate some group. Hint: nazism.

 

1) Indeed this is a fact. There are also many things that led up to it. For the nazis it was the mishandling of the Weimar Republic that caused the country to go to hell. In the midst of chaos a warlord always tends to show up. 

2) Two wrongs don't make a right. Discrimination is discrimination. There is almost always a "for and against" Discrimination causes things to escalate and get worse. The recipe for conflict and blowout. I am for acceptance and brotherly love. Making productive solutions. 

3) Yes I agree it is fabulous. It is a prime example for everyone to follow and I admire them so much for it. Why is there not more attention to trying to replicate their success? After all, what they are doing is working fabulously. Why am I not hearing more about it on ticktok and social media. I want to be like them. I want more and more people to be like them. In fact, they are doing far better than most white males.  Our attention should be to find out what works well and encourage everyone to do the same. 

4) That is exactly why I am engaging in this conversation with you. Could you identify and list the 5 most basic and fundamental problems for me? 

5) Could you define Privilege for me? I want the accurate definition. 

6) Yes, I don't see it.

7)  Popular opinion can also be very dangerous. Very dangerous indeed especially when it comes to blaming a particular race. Even if the majority doesn't agree, they are too scared that they will be attacked or killed or hurt or ostracized for not going along with the herd. Afterall, I don't hear much about self-development, meditation, improving your life. Becoming spiritual.. What I hear is: Fear, loss, grief, hatred, tragedy, death, conflict, agony, violence, war, trouble, disease, sex, celebrity and wealth and control of the sexes. 

Not all Germans were evil, in fact, after the war... they soon were able to become one of the world's leading nations and a good example of equality. Not perfect nation, but it shows they are not evil... Just not strong enough to stand up to popular opinion.

Popular opinion can get out of control. Many white men feel shamed, the don't feel confident, they feel weak, they are plagued with autism and mental illness. Is this what is intended? Turning white men into complacent sheep? Guess who is going to turn into a monster if things start going too bad? 

Where is the spirituality in this idea of  "white male privilege"?

No, I don't think discrimination in any degree is going to raise our consciousness, improve our abilities, become spiritual.  I want to bring people up, I want unconditional love.  

Most of all what I want to know is how is this idea of "white male privilege" will help humanity in its goal of having brotherly and sisterly love? 

Thank you so much for sharing your ideas with me. I love them so much. You have so much wisdom and I hunger for wisdom! I value this conversation very much. 

LOVE

Edited August 14, 2023 by Ajax

[Recursoinominado]

7 hours ago, Ajax said:

2) Two wrongs don't make a right. Discrimination is discrimination. There is almost always a "for and against" Discrimination causes things to escalate and get worse. The recipe for conflict and blowout. I am for acceptance and brotherly love. Making productive solutions. 

Of course, in an ideal world, there is no discrimination at all.

But in the world we live now, not all discrimination is equal.

This you have to understand.

I get it dude, i am a good-looking white straight male myself, sometimes is really annoying to be the center of criticism all the time by females and other groups.

But if i stop for a minute and think about other

people's experiences vs mine, i have to admit that my life could be significantly harder.

And those "attacks" don't put me in any danger because my standard position in society is higher by default.

8 hours ago, Ajax said:

Why is there not more attention to trying to replicate their success?

I guess people don't know how...

8 hours ago, Ajax said:

Could you identify and list the 5 most basic and fundamental problems for me? 

Well, from the top of my mind right now:

I don't live in fear of being raped, women do.

I don't live in fear of the police, black people do.

I don't live in fear of getting jumped and murdered, gay people do.

I don't live in fear of going hungry, poor uneducated people do.

That's just the most obvious ones, i am sure there are hundreds more that i can't even imagine because it isn't my personal experience.

8 hours ago, Ajax said:

5) Could you define Privilege for me? I want the accurate definition. 

My definition could be something like: unfair default advantages.

Being privileged is having some sort of advantage in society simply by belonging to some sort of group.

For instance, can you see that a good-looking person's life will be easier than an ugly person's life? All things being exactly the same, only changing the level of beauty, i think most people will agree that a good-looking person will have a few advantages in life.

That's just one simple example but any characteristic affects how people perceive us, male vs female, straight vs gay etc.

All contextual, of course.

8 hours ago, Ajax said:

Most of all what I want to know is how is this idea of "white male privilege" will help humanity in its goal of having brotherly and sisterly love? 

Well, if it is brotherly love you seek, start by giving other groups more power in society.

[Guest Tobia]

11 hours ago, Recursoinominado said:

Just put limits and consequences to it.

@Recursoinominado will you be the one to decide what is "hate speech" and what isn't?

People are sensitive to different things and I may consider hate speech something you consider comedy.

Limitations on speech are always exploited by power centers to strengthen their power.

Seems absurd and crazy, but i could easily see someone say that opposing funding Ukraine should now be considered hate speech.

[Raze]

3 hours ago, Tobia said:

@Recursoinominado will you be the one to decide what is "hate speech" and what isn't?

People are sensitive to different things and I may consider hate speech something you consider comedy.

Limitations on speech are always exploited by power centers to strengthen their power.

Seems absurd and crazy, but i could easily see someone say that opposing funding Ukraine should now be considered hate speech.

The funny thing is historically, the advocates for free speech were the oppressed people. “Safe spaces” were places where you could speak your mind. The irony is the people advocating for speech restrictions are actually the most privileged, as they think they should be allowed to dictate what can and can’t be said.

Any restriction of speech is by definition going to be decided and enforced by the powerful against the weak.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Raze

[Recursoinominado]

41 minutes ago, Tobia said:

will you be the one to decide what is "hate speech" and what isn't

As a society, we should agree on what is hate speech and what is not.

This is also often contextual and should be anylised case by case.

Would you agree for example that if I shout "kill all the jews" is hate speech?

Or "homosexuality is an abomination and should be combated"?

If we don't agree on basic premises, society living is impossible.

Laws imply the drawing of a line on often complex issues.

[Ulax]

I think its a great question to ask.

To my mind, we don't really care about free speech. We care about what free speech gives us.

If I am alone in a cave I don't care about free speech laws because it has no positive effect for me.

So, free speech is not a good thing in of itself. Instead, its something that can lead to some positive outcomes in some circumstance.

[Ajax]

6 hours ago, Recursoinominado said:

My definition could be something like: unfair default advantages.

Being privileged is having some sort of advantage in society simply by belonging to some sort of group.

For instance, can you see that a good-looking person's life will be easier than an ugly person's life? All things being exactly the same, only changing the level of beauty, i think most people will agree that a good-looking person will have a few advantages in life.

That's just one simple example but any characteristic affects how people perceive us, male vs female, straight vs gay etc.

All contextual, of course.

I define advantage as: Abilities and resources that produce the expected or desired result.

 I find most advantages related to mentality and work ethic, modified by abilities that the person has. 

These are not related to the way a person's body looks but their mind and spirit. 

This leads me to a question, which is of course outside of this thread and discussion... but... What does it mean to be human?

6 hours ago, Recursoinominado said:

Well, from the top of my mind right now:

I don't live in fear of being raped, women do.

I don't live in fear of the police, black people do.

I don't live in fear of getting jumped and murdered, gay people do.

I don't live in fear of going hungry, poor uneducated people do.

That's just the most obvious ones, i am sure there are hundreds more that i can't even imagine because it isn't my personal experience.

Thank you, I appreciate your ideas. So, the problem is to other people's fear. What's the solution?

6 hours ago, Recursoinominado said:

Well, if it is brotherly love you seek, start by giving other groups more power in society.

Could you define power for me? 

 

6 hours ago, Recursoinominado said:

As a society, we should agree on what is hate speech and what is not.

This is also often contextual and should be anylised case by case.

Would you agree for example that if I shout "kill all the jews" is hate speech?

Or "homosexuality is an abomination and should be combated"?

If we don't agree on basic premises, society living is impossible.

Laws imply the drawing of a line on often complex issues.

Very nice. 

[Buck Edwards]

Free speech is like a gun. Handle responsibly. 

[Gidiot]

Promote wise speech and discourage ignorant speech, like @Recursoinominado said, we should all come to a approximate consensus as to what speech is motivated by wisdom and love (normal/ polite/ appropriate )

and what speech is motivated by hate and ignorance,

most dictionaries already do this informally

it doesn’t necessarily have to be a law but there should be social consequences to mouthing off like Kanye west about the Jews or hating on someone’s mere identity. 
 

I think a wise person wouldn’t value their ability to say an obviously hateful thing to someone over their ability to restrain themselves from it. And really in an ideal world you should fear being a hateful individual instead of not being able to spew your hatred with no consequences because it’s protected under the law.

 

 

and yes it’s tricky, but if you can just say whatever you want in any cicrcumstances with no repercussions or consequences, then you are very reckless and society wouldn’t function harmoniously, curtailing hate speech isn’t about having power over people, although it may seem that, it’s an act of human compassion to protect vulnerable people from the worst faith actors  of our kind.
 

Some social taboos are good.

ideally you wouldn’t need a law and people would by default not resort to ad hominem and threating and hateful speech. 

but time and time again there is too much ignorance in the world and people might need an incentive to treat people with basic compassion in the world how sad it is. 
 

it’s always a balancing act between what’s good for the individual and what’s good for society.

Edited August 15, 2023 by Gidiot

[Sucuk Ekmek]

Free speech is like being a cat, you have absolute power over your owner, but you also know the limits.