Is free speech actually a good thing?

[Schizophonia]

On 15/08/2023 at 8:42 PM, Recursoinominado said:

Simple google search: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/09/09/us/powerful-people-race-us.html

Yes, it is consistent with what I just said

 

22 hours ago, Recursoinominado said:

Nice video showing the danger of promoting limitless "free speech" to hide HATE speech and the link between hate speech against LGBT people and CRIMES against them.

Where I live almost all anti-LGBT crimes are caused by North African or sub-Saharan immigrants.
Almost all crimes in general in fact, that's why people vote right wing (among other reasons).

Like a week or two ago, an "Omar" ( ) entered the home of a young French girl and raped and beat her, before ending up raping her with a broken broomstick. 
She ended up in the hospital with massive digestive system damage.

Get by with google translate if you want : https://www.francetvinfo.fr/faits-divers/cherbourg-ce-que-l-on-sait-du-viol-avec-actes-de-barbarie-sur-une-femme-a-son-domicile_6005822.html

Edited August 16, 2023 by Schizophonia

[Recursoinominado]

1 hour ago, Schizophonia said:

Yes, it is consistent with what I just said

[Danioover9000]

@Sucuk Ekmek

On 2023-08-15 at 6:53 AM, Sucuk Ekmek said:

Free speech is like being a cat, you have absolute power over your owner, but you also know the limits. 

   Exactly, free speech is like having the powers of a nekopara, to be both cute and serious, in an active balance when speaking.

[Danioover9000]

   Freedom of speech in artform:

 

[ryandesreu]

@The Redeemer give specific examples of hate speech you are questioning.

This question came to mind in 2020 with both the presidential election and covid misinformation happening. It seemed like there were more lies than truth being shared.

[Hatfort]

Freedom of speech is one of the pillars of democracies, in contrast with fascist and authoritarian regimes that don't allow it. Governments shouldn't control media, that's what's understood with freedom of speech as a concept. Now, what also can happen and is happening is that powerful entities like corporations and banks get full control of the media and the mainstream narrative, which is not okay either.

On the other hand, all speech cant be allowed. The easiest example to understand this could be pedophilia. It's also speech, but it can't be allowed, nor its promotion. Another can be incitement of violence or terrorist attacks, quite easy to understand that this should be illegal. You cannot ask for someone to be attacked or killed. Difamating someone with lies is speech too. Should it be allowed? No. It should be illegal. I could go on.

Hate speech should be kept in line too, especially against minorities and vulnerable groups. That could be sexism, racism, xenophobia, homophobia, transphobia, aporophobia, ableism, and even fatphobia to some degree, attacking people verbally or physically for who they are, what they believe, or even their circumstances. Slurs can enter that category. I hate feeding the beast of hate with examples, but one could be comparing a race with animals. Homophobia is easy to spot, nobody is insulted for being heterosexual, but yes for being homosexual, even killed, that's a reality. Same with cis and trans. Also for discriminatory reasons, like women being historically relegated to second-degree citizens for their sex, which is still noticeable in society. You can say that hate speech should be allowed to be debated and defeated in the marketplace of ideas, but the truth is that it perpetuates, and innocent people end up being harmed or killed. Hitler used his speech, it spread, and then the holocaust happened. But it also happens on a smaller scale.

[Danioover9000]

@Adrian colby

On 16/08/2023 at 9:43 PM, Adrian colby said:

Everyone has the inherent ‘ability’ to do and say whatever they want. To explore and discover their lives as they see fit… provided they don’t impose upon or prevent others from exploring and discovering their lives as they see fit. Individuality ( within the relative) comes with a bias (choice) and there are consequences to choices. That is what moves us through the life experience. Our choices should prompt us towards decisions that are beneficial individually and collectively (cooperation) but often we keep making the same choices because we identify with the pattern of behavior instead of recognising the harmful effects that cause problems for others and eventually isolate ourselves (entropy). The problem with hate speech depends on whether it is derived from a majority trying to silence a valid opinion pointing at something that is actually happening that threatens the identity of the culture or whether what is being said in opposition is based in a lack education/ignorance/ pre conceived or outdated beliefs. ( if you can step back you notice that it’s both) Hate speech and hate speech laws have risen in the past few years out of the chaos as one faction of society has tried to claw back the power of the narrative that determines what our truth is. It’s still the case that much of society doesn’t understand that ‘difference’ is the strength of multiple perspectives working together to get a clearer view of relative truth and so they treat difference and different perspectives as wrong. There is a balance between opposing forces that creates our human story. The question is if you fight to destroy one side that ultimately makes up your whole, when do you realise when it is gone you’ve inadvertently destroyed yourself too?  So what is hate speech? It depends on a persons individual perspective. It’s better to listen to that persons perspective and determine whether they are talking about an opinion or their own lives experience. What they say will always have a half truth, even if it is buried underneath language that sounds like total fantasy.

   Yes, it's tricky determining what and how much freedom of speech is good or too much in excess given the various development factors involved plus the survival of the person's ego and collective ego that controls and determines one's choices, as on the ultimate existential level Solipsism is a thing, and Solipsism is dangerous to the collective ego.

   Ultimately people's opinions of you are irrelevant, same with freedom speech. Relatively on most levels it's just people being too spoiled thinking they're entitled to their opinions, until they get punched in the face.

[sholomar]

On 8/16/2023 at 11:13 AM, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

Depends on which side of the free speech you are on. If you're on the receiving side of toxic speech, you might be interested in limiting the things people are able to say. If you're the side of those that are being limited in their speech, free speech might be very important to you. Generally, most people don't care about free speech as long as THEY can say what they want. Even people who spout "FREE SPEECH!" do that.

I think limiting free speech is a valid option, but it doesn't actually fix any root issues. So we can use it to, for example, stop the spreading of certain ideas that we deem to be harmful on a broader scale. We obviously can't properly assess whether an idea is harmful until later on, but we have to make these kinds of decisions in the face of the unknown, because some ideas that can be conveyed through speech can be genuinely harmful. So it's a good solution for the short run, but if our goal is to move away from certain ways of thinking as a society, limiting people in what they can say just isn't a workable solution in the long run. Eventually we will have to confront all of the things we don't want people to talk about. Keeping them from talking about these things keeps things somewhat "in order" for the time being.

The two guys who lived in China for 10 years and saw it's slow transformation back towards Authoritarianism after Xi took power made a good point. In China they don't want to talk about all the societal problems they have. It's like they all know, but they don't say anything. With that type of mentality, nothing will ever change. The willingness to confront and discuss uncomfortable topics is paramount to a healthy society.  It's when they started to talk about the issues of things like human trafficking and rampant government corruption that goes on in China that the government basically chased them out or disappeared them.

That type of speech is different than bullying though. Bullying, cliquish behavior, and the like are hard to control but efforts need to be made to keep these things in check, because bullying an already insecure individual can really mess them up. Bullying is done by weak, insecure people to people they perceive to be weaker. If you look at it from a dominance or social hierarchy standpoint, humans are always trying to find their place.  Perfectly normal people are fully capable of bullying, unfortunately.

Edited August 19, 2023 by sholomar

[Danioover9000]

@The Redeemer

On 2023-08-14 at 0:05 AM, The Redeemer said:

Why should anyone be allowed to express feelings of hatred towards a minority group for example? What good does this do.

   On the relative level, we then would know that group is more hateful towards another group. Without freedom of speech, we literally couldn't find out, in a safe way, if that group is more hateful. Plus, freedom of speech is also tricky, as it's integral to a democracy that all groups have the right to express, vocally or written, their opinions about anything, even if that may seem like hate speech. It's a tactic governments used at the time to get people talking, so they then could refine laws around what was actually said and done, at least on the public areas. the governments would know, based on what was said, done and expressed, which groups are more or less dangerous, therefore they get to refine laws accordingly. If all democracies changed freedom of speech into something like authoritarian regimes do, then we'd be pushing these hate groups outside of public awareness and public consciousness, therefore making preventative actions state wide much more harder, pushing these hate groups into hiding and into the black markets.

   In private areas of your life, actually letting yourself express negativity is cathartic and can release trapped emotions within your psyche, AKA doing consciousness streaming exercises, journaling, diary, meditation technics, contemplating, exercising and so on.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Danioover9000